Greetings. I'd just like to better understand what is allowed during chases. If I'm being chased, can I do to the cops what they do to me? Can I PIT them? And where does ramming begin? I had a situation today where I was being chased. There was a cop behind me and another one cut me off in front. And this was actually during a turn. I just wanted to get out of there so I accelerated as I got accidentally hit by the cop behind me. Then I was already going too fast to avoid hitting the one in front so I avoided braking and accelerated lightly to gain lateral acceleration in order to hit the smallest area of his car. I ended up hitting his back side at about 55km/h. This actually flipped him over. I felt bad and gave up the chase. But should I have? Here's the replay for anyone who's interested. The situation described happened after about 15 minutes.
The Replay
The cop behind you hit you because he failed to brake in time / avoid your car. Also keeping in mind that you braked quite hard / more than usuall for that corner.
what yopu did afterwards was clearly a ram. you accelerated again after seeing him blocking your way. you also caused major damage to him and flipped him.
I would classify your action as a ram and therefor as against the rules.
- Yes, you can pit the cop:
As long as: your driving behind the cop, and kindly hit him gently on one of his rear wheels, just make sure you hit behind the doors of the car.
(2011-10-08 12:07)blazej27 Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm being chased, can I do to the cops what they do to me? Can I PIT them? And where does ramming begin?
Yes you can use the same force as the cops, what means you can P.I.T. the cops into barriers i.e..
To your 3rd question: the ram will NEVER begin. ramming isn´t tolerated in any kind on TC servers, even if the cop is annoyed of the suspect because he chase him for more than 50kms.
I hope that answer your questions.
Regards!
What you did to Corey to flip him, I wouldnt call that a RAM in some respects or at all. If anything, that was a dangerous maneuver on the COPs part. If anything, since you have an RB4, the sand trap would have been safer if you were able to maneuver to the right in time. Either way, on a personal level, the incident on that replay was no ram and generally, its something to be forgotten about. The subject matter (whether something like this could be counted as a ram) at hand though, could probably be argued till were all blue in the face.
The starting point for ramming is opinion based.
In my honest opinion, ramming begins at speeds greater than 5mph / 8kph OR an action with malicious intent. For example, if I hit you at 4mph, I'd probably call it pushing not ramming.
There has to be a significant closing speed + enough evidence to suggest that it could have been avoided to be called a ram.
(2011-10-08 13:36)G B Wrote: [ -> ] (2011-10-08 12:07)blazej27 Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm being chased, can I do to the cops what they do to me? Can I PIT them? And where does ramming begin?
To your 3rd question: the ram will NEVER begin. ramming isn´t tolerated in any kind on TC servers, even if the cop is annoyed of the suspect because he chase him for more than 50kms.
He means at what point the contact is called a ram, not when ramming is allowed.
Thank you all for your responses.
I would define a ram (on TC) as solid contact with a high closing speed.
What closing speed admins go by when deciding which people to kick/ban for ramming, I'm not sure. I find a good rule of thumb is to avoid using force which is likely to damage the suspects vehicle in a way that will effect the handling/performance of his/her vehicle. Try to use small calculated nudges, contacting the car in effective points, rather than throwing your car into your opponent and hoping for the best. Also be careful with your timing - make sure you only use contact in a way or at a moment you know you won't crash other drivers. For e.g - don't PIT someone onto the left side of the road when traffic is approaching.
Common misconceptions:
"Robbers can't use force on cops" - Robbers can use the same force and tactics as cops.
"You're only allowed to use the PIT maneuver" - The PIT and BOX maneuvers are the only ones commonly discussed, but ramming (how TC defines it) is the only kind of contact against the rules. In a chase you're allowed to make contact with any part of the suspects/cops vehicle.
"You can't PIT people into barriers" - You can intentionally PIT/nudge your opponent into any object you want with the exception of other drivers. The damage your opponent receives is irrelevant provided it's the result of your opponent hitting the object and not the result of your initial contact.
"You can't tip people over" - you don't always have to ram to tip some cars over. UF1, LX4, LX6, XFR, UFR can tip with little side nudges. Lag hits can also effect this. If this happens, make sure you see the driver hit you with a high closing speed before accusing them of ramming.
"If I brake check and a cop/suspect crashes into me, it's their fault" - outside of a chase, this is true - you have a responsibility to leave enough distance so you're able to stop if the driver ahead feels he/she should need brake hard. if you don't, you're tailgating and the accident is your fault. In a chase things are quite different - a cop simply can't leave the necessary distance when approaching his suspect to make contact. If the driver ahead decides to brake erratically or has no good reason to brake (e.g - there's no corner is ahead) then it's very likely the cop approaching you won't be able to avoid harsh contact without driving off the road or into potential oncoming traffic. I've met quite a few people who seem to expect you to do this and then after the accident type "RAM!!!!" or "REPORTED" or "No srry?!?!" into the chat. Very annoying, please don't do this people.
That's just my understanding of the rules regarding contact though. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
Here's how [TC] look at it.
1.2. Do not crash or ram other cars deliberately.
I put in bold the word deliberately on purpose. The point I'm making is, people crash into each other all the time by mistake, it's not against the rules. It's whether or not the ram or crash was deliberate. It's very easy to see if a driver had malicious intent in his actions in a replay, it's also quite easy to spot a mistake.
One of the best indicators as to whether or not what appears to be a ram was deliberate, is when the driver says sorry and really means it.
You get the idea, it's like anything in life, you can pretty much tell when someone does something on purpose or not, there body language(driving) and words tell us the story.
And ofcourse, for those times when there was miscommunication, an unban appeal thread can go a long way if the user takes his time to explain what happened.
I think this has been thoroughly answered but to me, a nudge or whatever you want to call it can be done out of malicious intent at any speed. So I think the speed thing should be thrown out of the window. It can be easily manipulated to say someone 'pushed' someones car in retaliation. Of course then it obviously means that someone will report etc but there is no speed that should rule out the fact something was intentional, whether it be to nudge someone on purpose (when they would much rather plough into them at high speed but do it at low speed as to avoid a report). You probably would end up having every nooby driver who gets annoyed nudging everyone and if this becomes a rule of thumb, nothing would get done when it happens. Whether it be a ram, a nudge or a push, if it has malicious intent behind it, in my opinion its a ram (and should be enforced as such) whether or not its under 5mph.
So yeah, if something as light as a slight nudge has intent to get revenge or something, then it should be classed as a ram, otherwise its just going to end up being like I said, every noob crawling up to a car all casual then, blam, you get nudged and they drive off scott free. But yeah, I just fell into the same pitfall that was mentioned earlier about opinions defining what is a ram but eh, thought id say something
What's tolerated in a chase isn't necessarily tolerated outside a chase.
To classify light nudges with malicious intent as ramming is just complicating the definition. It's already against the rules to crash or harass other players. Just because it's not classified as ramming it doesn't mean users are allowed to go around bumping into users as often as they want.
Yes, I'm pretty clear on what is allowed in casual driving. It is the chase situation that is perplexing. Obviously, in a chase, there is a lot of intentional pushing and nudging. The question is, where does one draw the line?
Yes, I was just replying to PeePee. It sounded to me like he was talking about casual driving.
As for in chase, I tried to answer where the line is drawn between permitted contact and ramming in the long reply (different account - sorry for confusion).
I should point out some of the things I said are allowed, aren't all recommended in the cop guide. The only recommended contact maneuvers are the PIT and BOX. However, you are allowed to be inventive with your techniques. For e.g - using a nudge/push in the necessary place to direct your opponent onto sand, where they could be boxed in or get stuck. I do this often with certain cars. Especially when the car has high Tyre temps.
I had a look at your replay. Due to the fact you hit him with a closing speed of over 30mph, had enough time to see the cop's position and come of the throttle to steer around him, I would classify that as a ram. But in this case nothing to worry about - you proved it was accidental by giving up your chase. IMO this was the best thing you could have done to say sorry and show you had no malicious intent. You were also accidentally rammed just before the incident, which may have made you react by accelerating hard. I can understand wanting to do that. Like Tommer said, people make mistakes, you won't get banned/kicked for something accidental. Just say sorry and make sure the person you hit understands.
No malicious intent, Dont repent !