Poll for new Copping Rule - Printable Version

Poll for new Copping Rule - Printable Version

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Poll for new Copping Rule - AOR Nova - 2019-04-13 14:24

Hi, just wanted to suggest a new rule for Cops since NB highlighted a forum post might work.

[TL; DR begin]
Earlier on in the day I was in a chase at the viaduct junction from AB North to BizPark, and got pitted facing the wrong way (in reverse) across the small sand trap. 3 cops were right infront of me following closely as I edged towards the entry lane onto BizPark (WW to AB, to say).

This is where the incident that started this suggestion.

2 of the 3 cops stopped just before the exit in your nice-etiquette fair copping way and gave space for me to return onto BizPark normally.
However, one cop decided to continue shuffling me backwards and out the exit going wrong way, not leaving me any space or option to stop and return to forward motion.
With this forceful maneuver I had no choice (besides stopping and conceding, but then the cop would get away with his actions?) but to continue reversing with the cop tailgating my bumper and ww onto the autobahn - cop included.
[TL; DR end]

I got a fined and a Warning for Wrong-Waying on autobahn.

So the question/reasoning/suggestion about this is,
should there be a rule to dictate the maneuvers a cop can take when a suspect is heading wrong-way?
Should a cop slow partially or stop and give the suspect a means to mobilise without choosing to wrong-way?
It is well known that the general etiquette amongst cops (who are not corrupt) to stop and leave space for the suspect to turn around, or to say in chat to "stop wrong-waying, and come back"

Problem starts when cop ignores this etiquette and provides no other option for the suspect besides to continue his motion wrong-way. This is, to me, extremely unfair and morally incorrect from a copping perspective, especially considering the cop in question (name withheld) followed the suspect (me) onto the Autobahn wrong-way as well.

This rule/suggestion is of course is not the same as a suspect driving intentionally wrong way or being flipped over a wall wrong-way.

If a suspect is to behave fairly towards a Cop, a Cop should also behave likewise.

What are your thoughts on this - should cops be allowed to force, guide, or funnel a suspect wrong-way with intent on busting the suspect by abusing the no-ww rule, or making a report thereafter?
Should cops be given the ability to make a suspect wrong-way in order to make a bust?
Or, should cops behave nicely-fairly and sportsmanlike, and give the suspect a chance to not break rules in TC?

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Mr. NB - 2019-04-13 14:57

(2019-04-13 14:24)AOR Nova Wrote: With this forceful maneuver I had no choice (besides stopping and conceding, but then the cop would get away with his actions?) but to continue reversing with the cop tailgating my bumper and ww onto the autobahn - cop included.

Yes, you had other choices, but instead you've chosen the one that kept the most momentum—you deliberately drove wrong way onto the Autobahn. No one forced you there, you could easily continue reversing in sand and turn around.

I think that rule 10.0.1. is clear enough as it is.

Replay | 4:01:05

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Barney - 2019-04-13 15:01

Hard to judge without a replay, but from your desription the cop was already breaching serverrules aswell by going wrongway without being at risk of losing the chase.

Quote:1. Cops in chase may drive on the wrong side of the Autobahn for short distances if no alternative route is available without losing the chase

Meaning to me there is no need for a rulechange.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Mr. NB - 2019-04-13 15:14

[Image: AVN0Sd3.jpg]

I see plenty of space. You really had no reason for wrong way driving there.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - AOR Nova - 2019-04-13 15:53

(2019-04-13 15:14)Mr. NB Wrote:

I see plenty of space. You really had no reason for wrong way driving there.

If I had stopped, the cop would have been right in front of me, and I doubt he'd "reverse" to let me by? I'd be left with nowhere to go. If I had tried to turn into the sand, I'd beach my car and I'll get busted. If I had stopped, then tried to go forward, I'd be blocked and face-to-face with a cop.

The only way in this situation to not get busted is to continue through the only route the cop had produced, which is backwards out into Autobahn.

It's not about 'space', it is about where that space is - and in this case the 'space' would get me busted.

Point in question being about the suggestion is ; the suspect should be given an alternative route besides wrong-way without being busted. Suspect should be allowed to ww for a short period if Cops created the ww situation in the first place.
A cop should not chase a suspect into a situation where wrong-waying is the only possibility.
There should not be a situation where it's "wrong way or bust".

This is what the suggestion for new rule is.
> Suspect should not be put in a place where he/she is guaranteed a bust if he/she complies to rules. Cops should respect suspect and give the opportunity for suspect to maneuver as such to avoid breaking a rule (WW).

Need to point out, this is not a dead end or a solid wall - if I was up against a dead end I'd be pretty content ending the chase then and there.

Is this clear enough explanation of the proposal?
If I didn't get a warning for this bollocks I'd be happy not bringing this up..
What I'm basically doing here is trying to make an etiquette a rule - since apparently most cops like to create foul play and behave unfairly.

To put into perspective -
Leonex and the other cop at the back slowed down a lot and granted some space if I wanted to move forward.

This is the etiquette that I see, although not very often..

If I was the C1 in question, I would have also followed Leonx and gave some buffer space and called for the suspect to "come back".
In that case I'd gladly stop reversing and move forward given that I now have sufficient space and a route to take without breaking the WW rule.

However, Mr C1 here doesn't slow down or stop, and tails me out. Why am I the one that then receives a warning? Why the hell is this allowed to happen? It's not a written rule, but shouldn't everyone be nice?

In the words of Max,
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/13/i-was-trying-to-be-nice-verstappen-unhappy-with-vettels-qualifying-tactics/
[Image: a402e8a2b067b2544c0b9e48497288ec.png]

[Image: a402e8a2b067b2544c0b9e48497288ec.png]

If it's fine to force a suspect into a WW situation, then I'll gladly do it too and mess everyone up that way, since it appears no one really cares about chasing fairly or having some sportsmanship.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - TAZxx - 2019-04-13 18:15

I'm gonna look at it a different way, you started on the dirt, but CHOSE to reverse Wrong Way, why not just get back on the kerb then drive forwards? That would have been the option to avoid issues like the one you had, correct?

Either way, the rules are clear in my opinion... MOST cops will play fair and let you carry on running in that situation instead of doing everything they can to bust you.

Rule in this case does not need amendment or additions imo.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - SIMOX - 2019-04-13 19:35

Firstly he got pushed into the sand and since he had some momentum going started reversing backwards (i would have done the same tbh). I checked the replay and you can't tell much from pictures though but the cops were swarming him like bees. There was no way he could stop and not WW. After he reversed into the AB and had a slight contact with that cop, other 2 cops were blocking the road aswell. I don't see how you could "try" driving the normal way without getting blocked. That one cop was very persistent on following nova WW and thus forced him WW.

When the COP P.I.T's the suspect into oncoming traffic (WW) you blame the COP right?
So if the COP forces the suspect WW you blame the suspect?

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Bez - 2019-04-13 22:23

Whats worse? Breaking server rules or losing a chase. If you put chase priority over the rules thats your own fault.

A simple gentlemans "Well I'm busted" would had worked in this situation. Losing a chase isn't the end of the world...

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Barney - 2019-04-13 22:42

Lol, bez...

I see where you are coming from, Nova and Simox. The „Cop“ surely behaved like a goof, and imho indeed did not play by both rules and etiquette by instantly following wrongway past the ovalexit. A warning should have been placed aswell. But then on the oval there was enough space and time to either take the exit back again or continue correct way on the oval and wait for the other cops to catch up(according to the rules). Going way back to the other bridge was simply out of anger and just over the top. Warning totally justified. Just my 2 cents.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Dizzle - 2019-04-14 01:09

Inside that AB exit is open season. No cops have to let you escape by continuing the right way, and you may not escape leaving the wrong way.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Chuck - 2019-04-14 05:56

"No cops" or "No, cops" ? Wink

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - fWANKy - 2019-04-14 06:40

(2019-04-14 01:09)Dizzle Wrote: Inside that AB exit is open season. No cops have to let you escape by continuing the right way, and you may not escape leaving the wrong way.

english please? i know you're from the south but cmon ..

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - SIMOX - 2019-04-14 08:01

My replay got ruined by the lag there though.
[Image: jcCupdY.gif]

It looked to me like Nova was provoked to go wrong way by the relentless cop not wanting to back down and give some room to drive the correct way.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - bowler - 2019-04-14 08:35

maybe but if u look when he backed onto ab theres clearly enough room to turn around as cops overshoot. but the he puts his car in 1st n travels ww

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - AOR Nova - 2019-04-14 08:50

(2019-04-13 19:35)SIMOX Wrote: Firstly he got pushed into the sand and since he had some momentum going started reversing backwards (i would have done the same tbh). I checked the replay and you can't tell much from pictures though but the cops were swarming him like bees. There was no way he could stop and not WW. After he reversed into the AB and had a slight contact with that cop, other 2 cops were blocking the road aswell. I don't see how you could "try" driving the normal way without getting blocked. That one cop was very persistent on following nova WW and thus forced him WW.

When the COP P.I.T's the suspect into oncoming traffic (WW) you blame the COP right?
So if the COP forces the suspect WW you blame the suspect?

The bold bit in particular. That's what I'm trying to put across.

And I'm not just using my particular incident as a "overall" scenario. I'm talking in general, about other happenings that happen unseen or unreported.

It could be a suspect being boxed in at a bridge ramp (the 2 overhead passes on AB) and only able to go backwards to escape; it could be a suspect coming across a roadblock on Paddock Tunnel Way and having to take Wrong-way for a short while to bypass.

The "No WW in Autobahn" rule puts things into more perspective as it's a fixed strict rule, but in the bigger picture. This bigger picture is what the proposed new rule/suggestion is supposed to cover.

So if the COP forces the suspect WW you blame the suspect?

> Cops should respect suspect and give the opportunity for suspect to maneuver as such to avoid breaking a rule (WW)

And if the above is not possible, then the anti-WW rules should be further looked into to grant a grace amount of distance or situation in which a suspect has to take WW for a short period. Each incident should be looked over if it shall be reported. Case-by-case basis. Same thing for cops, which is already a leniency in place.

Cops and Suspects should be entire fair game in my view and this certainly isn't fair.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Mr. NB - 2019-04-14 09:36

(2019-04-14 08:01)SIMOX Wrote: It looked to me like Nova was provoked to go wrong way by the relentless cop not wanting to back down and give some room to drive the correct way.

That gif is not long enough. He had plenty of space and momentum while he was still reversing in sand and could easily turn around there. That'd be more risky than driving on tarmac of course, but I feel he was carrying more than enough speed to not get boxed-in instantly.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Carl - 2019-04-14 09:52

There is two ways to look at it I guess. If you get yourself in that situation where you are unable to escape without breaking the rules, then consider yourself busted and try do better next time. I agree that it can be terribly frustrating and some cops, if feeling nice they will let you return to continue.

I like to imagine that there is an invisible wall behind me and accept that I goofed up for getting into that position. I don't mind losing a chase if that's the case.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - AOR Nova - 2019-04-14 14:53

(2019-04-14 09:36)Mr. NB Wrote:
(2019-04-14 08:01)SIMOX Wrote: It looked to me like Nova was provoked to go wrong way by the relentless cop not wanting to back down and give some room to drive the correct way.

That gif is not long enough. He had plenty of space and momentum while he was still reversing in sand and could easily turn around there. That'd be more risky than driving on tarmac of course, but I feel he was carrying more than enough speed to not get boxed-in instantly.

No. Your analysis is incorrect. Simox's is right.

When I was reversing I actually had intended on janking a u turn to not wrong way entirely down the back straight of AB. That's why you see me turning around immediately as I exited the slipway. I could have turned around there, then reversed (correct-way) down the AB and pulled a J-turn.

But C1 decided to give my door a bang which sent me into a fast spin and I stalled because of that. Then C3 overtook C2 and attempted to block my reversing path (if I had chosen to), so with that cop in my rear mirror that was out of the option.
If you're referring to that tiny 1 second moment before I entered the Autobahn where I could have gone back into the sand in reverse... read the posts above for the reason why I couldn't do that.

(2019-04-14 09:52)Carl Wrote: There is two ways to look at it I guess. If you get yourself in that situation where you are unable to escape without breaking the rules, then consider yourself busted and try do better next time. I agree that it can be terribly frustrating and some cops, if feeling nice they will let you return to continue.

I like to imagine that there is an invisible wall behind me and accept that I goofed up for getting into that position. I don't mind losing a chase if that's the case.

I understand Carl. When I cop I respect the suspect, sometimes more then necessary, just to ensure a nice chase. I'd expect fairness in return but I guess other cops simply don't care.
Anyway, your entire analogy is the reason of the post in the first place. A suspect should not be put in a position where "he is unable to escape without breaking the rules". Cops should actively monitor their surroundings and not persuade the suspect into such a situation.

At least that's what this proposal of rule is about.

Not all suspects are going to be gayed out by cops basically "guiding them" into a wrong way/dead end and there are definitely a lot more who would be willing to tussle to get out of this scenario. And that's what I did.

(2019-04-14 09:52)Carl Wrote: and some cops, if feeling nice they will let you return to continue.

This is what the rule should highlight, if it ever gets accepted.. Etiquette made into a rule. Read post(s) above.

//edit
I'm not alone in this, this thread also covers the biasness of the WW rule.
https://forum.city-driving.co.uk/showthread.php?tid=31099
Being a suspect is already extremely tough and escaping even tougher these days. Thing shouldn't be made even harder for the suspect.

If someone is going to give his opinion on my incident or Tris's incident I encourage them to not repeat the same thing by saying "Oh, I can just turn off into the sand and the escape will be easy" or "Oh just surrender"
This isn't Brexit, suspects aren't that jelly.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - Mr. NB - 2019-04-14 15:16

There is literally 15 acres of space around you once you start reversing and you're telling me the only way you could go was wrong way onto the Autobahn? Stop pretending like you were pinned against the wall with no other choices, it was you who made the decision to start reversing in that direction.

On top of that, once you take the wrong way exit, you turn around and keep driving in the wrong direction until the bridge. If you're going to suggest new rules, at least stick to the ones that already exist first.

RE: Poll for new Copping Rule - AOR Nova - 2019-04-15 02:03

(2019-04-14 15:16)Mr. NB Wrote: There is literally 15 acres of space around you once you start reversing and you're telling me the only way you could go was wrong way onto the Autobahn? Stop pretending like you were pinned against the wall with no other choices, it was you who made the decision to start reversing in that direction.

On top of that, once you take the wrong way exit, you turn around and keep driving in the wrong direction until the bridge. If you're going to suggest new rules, at least stick to the ones that already exist first.

Don't focus on the afternath, focus on the cause.

I already explained why I couldn't just turn another way. I was "pinned" not physically, but by the trajectory of C1. I was not going to bust myself by going into the sand.

This brings us back to the original point, if we could focus on that..