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New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-12 02:18

Hey everyone,

I've been wanting a computer that's capable of my needs since 2009, and back then my needs were minimal since all I played was MTA: SA, and surfed the web.
If you want to read more: (Click to View)


OK, enough of that. On to the interesting stuff.

I've been doing a lot of research but I haven't been sure of what CPU/GPU combo is best for me. I've looked at the Sandy Bridge processors, and while they do boast fantastic single core performance for games along with a lot of power, I'm not exactly sure if they could handle the multitasking power I desire. I'm not really sure what programs are compatible with hyperthreading in the i7's and what benefit it would be since hyperthreading takes away some power per core to power the extra threads.
I've also looked at AMD's Bulldozer platform. I've heard some good things, but generally bad things. I feel that most of the negativity towards that platform is because AMD overhyped these processors. The low cost of the 8120 (I can currently get one for $150) is appealing and I've been interested in trying something new, in this case AMD since I've only used Intel processors. The benchmarks don't look good, but from everyone I've asked that owns any of the bulldozers say that it's incredibly fast.

For a graphics card, my first one was my GT240 (my mom had a Radeon 9800PRO (dead) and a x1650 Pro (on its way out) in her old Dell) and it was really good for my needs, including the great drivers. I'd rather have an NVIDIA card since they've been more reliable than ATi card's I've used in the past (my cousin's Geforce MX 420 is still running fine, just as incredibly slow as it was new 10 years ago).

Other parts I don't care too much about, as long as they're reliable and trusted by others then I'll hop on the bandwagon.

I don't want to replace my Thermaltake TR2 600W PSU since it's only had 3 months of use on it and I don't want to do any multi-GPU configurations. I'd like an SSD as a boot device, but it's not the end of the world if I can't afford it.

I can't spend more than $800 USD, unfortunately so AMD's cheaper alternatives are appealing to me.

I'm not sure where to start for something that's right for me and my budget, and I can wait a couple of months for new hardware to be released. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated![/b]


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Tommer - 2012-08-12 02:40

Most modern applications support HT and new processors are more efficient per thread and don't require the large amount of power old ones did to do the same tasks.

If you're gaming/multitasking you won't need an i7 that's overkill, even an i3 will be smooth flying.

Bulldozers are supposed to be competition with the new i7 Sandy's so they won't be slow to say the least.

I won't give advice on GPU's since i've not been watching the market or reading reports.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Zipppy - 2012-08-12 02:49

I'm in a similar situation, and I bought an Asus sabertooth 990FX motherboard, it's pretty solid.
and I believe AMD will release Piledriver in the fall, and it is claimed to be 20% faster than Bulldozer. Anything is faster than my current triple core however. AMD won't reach Intel, but it's good enough.

From what I've read over the web, is as follows;
If you compare ATI vs NVIDIA on GPUs, you'll find ATI's cards are cheaper and are quicker, but have sub-standard quality on drivers, which bog them down. NVIDIA however, has a bit less performance but has well-optimized drivers, and they cost more, with more power consumption than ATI's, except for the GTX680.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-12 04:15

(2012-08-12 02:40)Tommer Wrote:  If you're gaming/multitasking you won't need an i7 that's overkill, even an i3 will be smooth flying.
Well, my current i5 is like a slow i3 with Turboboost. When it's doing the usual stuff I can make it clock around 2.8 to 2.9GHz (never 3.0, sadly) so I doubt an i3 would pack the power I need for multitasking.

(2012-08-12 02:49)Zipppy Wrote:  I'm in a similar situation, and I bought an Asus sabertooth 990FX motherboard, it's pretty solid.
and I believe AMD will release Piledriver in the fall, and it is claimed to be 20% faster than Bulldozer. Anything is faster than my current triple core however. AMD won't reach Intel, but it's good enough.

From what I've read over the web, is as follows;
If you compare ATI vs NVIDIA on GPUs, you'll find ATI's cards are cheaper and are quicker, but have sub-standard quality on drivers, which bog them down. NVIDIA however, has a bit less performance but has well-optimized drivers, and they cost more, with more power consumption than ATI's, except for the GTX680.
Yes, I've heard about Piledriver. I can probably wait until then, I just hope that AMD doesn't overhype them like they did with the Bulldozer.

ATi is usually packing a similar $/performance ratio to AMD's processors, but lack the software integrity. Another reason why I'd rather go with NVIDIA is because I play more NVIDIA optimized games, like GTA IV and I've read online that Minecraft seems to run best with an NVIDIA card. I got 160fps on it during the beta with my GT 240. I would only go with AMD Radeon if it were a better value.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Elmo - 2012-08-12 16:18

The Piledriver core has been proven to be at least 15% faster than Bulldozer, as Piledriver is currently available in the new APUs, so proper comparisons can already be made.

The only optimising you can really do for Hyper-threading is to use the instruction sets that HT supports. This will give speed improvements in some kinds of processing, but none (sometimes even slower) with others.

AMD Bulldozer/Piledriver pros:
AMD currently excels at multitasking. It usually wins multithreaded multimedia benchmarks (including compression, video encoding etc) even against more expensive Intels. It's also has better IO throughput. It's not usually so good in the gaming type benchmarks, which is what most people shout about.
Bang/buck Bulldozer currently wins on the whole.
AMD motherboard chipsets usually have much better specifications than Intels and are often cheaper at a similar spec.
Also being able to throw 8 cores at your VMs can only be a good thing Wink

The hyperthreaded Intels typically do better on the single-threaded/unoptimised stuff. Games often fall into that category, but as ever it depends on the game.

If you get an Intel, get an Ivybridge. They're more power efficient and very slightly faster than Sandybridge and are typically around the same price.
If you go AMD it is probably worth waiting for Piledriver (possibly depending on price when it's released).


Radeon v nVidia
Last time I checked, nVidias typically use more power and therefore generate more heat.
nVidia have had design issues with some chips which have resulted in very high failure rates. The problems I've heard about Radeons tend to be more random and often down to poor cooler or component choice by the OEMs. However there are a number of OEMs for Radeons, some being better than others notably Asus, Gigabyte and XFX.

Sensible graphics card choice is generally down to which is better value at the time and whether one has features that you need that the other doesn't.
In your case, it may depend on what is supported by your video editing software. I've heard Vegas 11 Pro doesn't yet support GPGPU acceleration with the latest nVidias, but that may well change. I dunno about the others.


You should have no problem keeping your PSU.


RAM - you're probably alright with 8GB for now. If it becomes a problem, you can always get an extra 4 or 8 in the future - just make sure you get a motherboard with 4 slots.


Motherboard - make sure that it has Realtek audio and nothing VIA. The rest of the specs will depend on what exactly you need.


I'm interested to know how it can take so long to move files on a harddrive, unless it's moving to another drive/partition. Moving on the same drive doesn't involve reading/writing the files themselves, only metadata.
Either way, a large (1TB+) 7200 RPM drive will be much faster (120+MB/s sequential) than your laptop drive. A 120GB+ SSD for system will still be worth it if you can afford it.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-12 17:13

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  The Piledriver core has been proven to be at least 15% faster than Bulldozer, as Piledriver is currently available in the new APUs, so proper comparisons can already be made.
Really? I'll have to check those out then.

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  AMD Bulldozer/Piledriver pros:
AMD currently excels at multitasking. It usually wins multithreaded multimedia benchmarks (including compression, video encoding etc) even against more expensive Intels. It's also has better IO throughput. It's not usually so good in the gaming type benchmarks, which is what most people shout about.
Bang/buck Bulldozer currently wins on the whole.
AMD motherboard chipsets usually have much better specifications than Intels and are often cheaper at a similar spec.
Also being able to throw 8 cores at your VMs can only be a good thing Wink
Yes, I have heard that they are "multitasking beasts", and I do agree with being able to use more cores for my VMs. Smile

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  The hyperthreaded Intels typically do better on the single-threaded/unoptimised stuff. Games often fall into that category, but as ever it depends on the game.
Yes, I've read that Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge pack a lot of single-threaded power.

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  If you get an Intel, get an Ivybridge. They're more power efficient and very slightly faster than Sandybridge and are typically around the same price.
Yes, but I've heard that Ivy runs a lot hotter. I'm not sure if it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised considering it's a die shrink. Intel's next line of processors should be significantly better than Sandy and Ivy because of Intel's tick-tock upgrade routine.
(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  If you go AMD it is probably worth waiting for Piledriver (possibly depending on price when it's released).
If it's priced appropriately when it's released then I'll probably be a buyer. Smile

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  Radeon v nVidia
Last time I checked, nVidias typically use more power and therefore generate more heat.
nVidia have had design issues with some chips which have resulted in very high failure rates. The problems I've heard about Radeons tend to be more random and often down to poor cooler or component choice by the OEMs. However there are a number of OEMs for Radeons, some being better than others notably Asus, Gigabyte and XFX.

Yes, I heard about the 8400M GS (or whatever it was) in the Dell M1330 having an extremely high failure rate, luckily my mom bought the Intel version of that laptop, which died anyway. So far I like XFX mostly because I've had a good experience and my GT 240 has a double lifetime warranty from them, which I assume would be with their new Radeon lineup.

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  In your case, it may depend on what is supported by your video editing software. I've heard Vegas 11 Pro doesn't yet support GPGPU acceleration with the latest nVidias, but that may well change. I dunno about the others.
Currently I'm using WLMM (eww) until I can acquire better software. What's GPGPU?


(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  RAM - you're probably alright with 8GB for now. If it becomes a problem, you can always get an extra 4 or 8 in the future - just make sure you get a motherboard with 4 slots.
Well, I already run out of memory with 6GB, I'm not sure if 8GB would be sufficient.

(2012-08-12 16:18)Elmo Wrote:  I'm interested to know how it can take so long to move files on a harddrive, unless it's moving to another drive/partition. Moving on the same drive doesn't involve reading/writing the files themselves, only metadata.
Either way, a large (1TB+) 7200 RPM drive will be much faster (120+MB/s sequential) than your laptop drive. A 120GB+ SSD for system will still be worth it if you can afford it.
I used to use Bandicam to record LFS, but the file size was no different than with FRAPS. So when my C: drive partition gets full, I wait 20 years for a couple hundred GB of video to mosey its way to my other partition. I now use Game Booster to record, and I get way smaller video files (from 30GB per video to 500MB, both about 30min long), so I wouldn't be file shuffling as often.

This is a Newegg wishlist I made a few days ago...still incomplete. (Click to View)



RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Zipppy - 2012-08-12 18:17

Just to ask, what were you doing when you ran out of memory?

EDIT: I'm using an ASUS GTX560 DC/2DI/1GD5 since I bought it last November. I got it for $195 on newegg, before the 6 series came out. It is cheaper now because of the new GFX. I went on general consensus when getting it, as it was the most recommended. But the Ti would be a bit better performance-wise.
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121466


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-13 03:08

(2012-08-12 18:17)Zipppy Wrote:  Just to ask, what were you doing when you ran out of memory?

EDIT: I'm using an ASUS GTX560 DC/2DI/1GD5 since I bought it last November. I got it for $195 on newegg, before the 6 series came out. It is cheaper now because of the new GFX. I went on general consensus when getting it, as it was the most recommended. But the Ti would be a bit better performance-wise.
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121466
Usually it's when I'm running a VM, I usually give it 1.5GB to 2.5GB when needed. Back in my FireFox days (July 2012 and earlier) I occasionally encountered a HUGE memory leak in FireFox. Now the only time I run out is when I'm researching since Chrome tends to be a bit of a memory hog.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Zipppy - 2012-08-13 03:52

Maybe 8 GB should be the lower-end of what you'd manage with, my brother has the same amount of memory on his MacBook, and he runs a VM with Windows 7 when he plays certain games (Borderlands being the most intensive), last time I checked. He doesn't have any issues as far as I've seen.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-13 05:29

(2012-08-13 03:52)Zipppy Wrote:  Maybe 8 GB should be the lower-end of what you'd manage with, my brother has the same amount of memory on his MacBook, and he runs a VM with Windows 7 when he plays certain games (Borderlands being the most intensive), last time I checked. He doesn't have any issues as far as I've seen.

Yes, but Mac OS uses the hardware a little differently. If he give Windows 7 4Gb of RAM then he would still have plenty of RAM for Mac OS, and he probably wouldn't be leaving many programs open in Mac OS when he's using Windows 7 to play his games. I, however, prefer to leave Chrome with all of my many tabs and Paint.NET, and other programs open so they're all set up and ready to go when I need to use them, and I normally have unfinished work left open in PDN that I still need to complete, so I like to leave it open.
Right now I have Windows Explorer, Steam, Chrome with 1 window, 3 tabs, Windows Photo Viewer, iTunes, Task Manager, Skype and PDN open and I'm only using 2GB of ram because I was just playing GTA IV. I had to close most of my stuff just to run the game. Tongue When I'm in my groove I find that I use 3GB of RAM with Chrome alone, and I record with Debut a lot, too which takes up about 750MB of RAM. When I'm really working, boom I get a memory lockup at 5.8GB. That isn't even when I'm running Ylmf in VBox. I'll probably try 8GB for now and upgrade later on if I need to, since ram is so cheap nowadays. Smile


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Elmo - 2012-08-13 16:01

(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  Yes, but I've heard that Ivy runs a lot hotter. I'm not sure if it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised considering it's a die shrink.
Ivy is more power efficient so generates less heat, however the die shrink has made it less efficient at dissipating the heat, so overall it runs hotter.


(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  So far I like XFX mostly because I've had a good experience and my GT 240 has a double lifetime warranty from them, which I assume would be with their new Radeon lineup.
My XFX HD4890 has been going strong for over 3 years now with no problems. TBH, I've personally never had any graphics card failures, but I have a mate that had an nVidia die (7000 series I think). Closest thing to a Radeon problem I've come in contact with was a X1950pro that had a slightly dodgy bearing after a few years of being mounted upside down (Dell BTX case). Most fans aren't designed to run that way up, so it's a common issue. We let it run the right way up in my PC for a few hours and it's been fine ever since (2 years and counting).

(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  Currently I'm using WLMM (eww) until I can acquire better software. What's GPGPU?
GPGPU means General Purpose GPU, where the GPU is used for processing other than displaying to screen. GPUs are much better than CPUs at certain general processing tasks - particularly things that can be done in massive parallel (100s of threads) - video renderers and compression are starting to use it more, some more than halving the processing time when using CPU+GPU. You may have heard of the CUDA (nVidia) or OpenCL (AMD/Open Source) implementations.


(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  I used to use Bandicam to record LFS, but the file size was no different than with FRAPS. So when my C: drive partition gets full, I wait 20 years for a couple hundred GB of video to mosey its way to my other partition. I now use Game Booster to record, and I get way smaller video files (from 30GB per video to 500MB, both about 30min long), so I wouldn't be file shuffling as often.
You should probably use the other partition for recordings anyway - especially if you get an SSD, which won't be big enough.
If you use Fraps/Bandicam again, it would be a good idea to compress the videos with 3rd party software, which will save a huge amount of space. Should also be possible to make the Game Booster files somewhat smaller - 1GB/min seems huge even for HD video. Blu-ray is something like 120MB/min.
You get such huge files because the recording software does very little compression for performance reasons. It can be compressed much more after recording when you have the time to do the processing.

(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  ...I think I would rather go with 12GB (3x4GB)...
Don't get an odd number of memory modules, you won't get Dual Channel if you do, which will half the memory speed. Only 1st generation i7 processors wanted Triple channel (multiple of 3 modules). You'll want 2x8GB (16GB), 2x4GB (8GB) or 2x4GB & 2x2GB (12GB).

(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  ...I was going with the 8120 instead for $25 less
Get the 8150 if you can afford it - it's 16% faster for 16% more money.

(2012-08-12 17:13)Kenwood Wrote:  For a graphics card, any specific recommendations?
I haven't got any specific recommendations atm.


You can probably get some cheaper memory - I don't remember it being that expensive in the US. You could also probably save some money by getting a cheaper, but still good quality, case.
I'll have a look around newegg later.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-13 16:30

I chose the 8120 because it's only a 500MHz difference which is easily overclockable to 3.6GHz. Why spend money on something you can achieve yourself for less? Smile

I chose the Fractal Design case as an alternative to the Corsair 500R (I reeaaallly like the 500R) so I can easily mount an H100 to the top of the case. I could do an Antec 300 for $55 and try a H80 water cooler instead, but I don't know how well it cools compared to the H100.

8GB of DDR3 memory is about $50, depending on the brand and speed. I can get 2133 for $57 and 1600 for $50, from reputable brands.

I can save money by not getting the keyboard since I do have an old Dell PS/2 one laying around but the backlit on the Sidewinder is very beneficial. I've wanted a backlit keyboard for maybe 2 years now. I could also look into a refurb monitor (silly me sold my old monitor at a yard sale, and my mom's old 15" 4:3 monitor is showing only green) or a cheaper one. If I really need to, I'll get an old one from craigslist for $20. I can also wait on Windows, I've been experimenting with Ylmf and I can take a break from Steam games for a bit. Tongue

I've been looking at video cards, I can get a 560 Ti for just over $200 or a 6870 for about $175. Looks like there's a 6950 on sale for $200, but it's a Sapphire...risky. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102987 I'm not really building a super-uber gaming beast... Just something that can handle my daily tasks and run GTA IV. :3


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Nitros - 2012-08-14 14:03

(2012-08-13 16:30)Kenwood Wrote:  I chose the 8120 because it's only a 500MHz difference which is easily overclockable to 3.6GHz. Why spend money on something you can achieve yourself for less? Smile

Why ask for advice on it, if you have already made up your mind? Smile


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-14 15:53

(2012-08-14 14:03)Nitros Wrote:  
(2012-08-13 16:30)Kenwood Wrote:  I chose the 8120 because it's only a 500MHz difference which is easily overclockable to 3.6GHz. Why spend money on something you can achieve yourself for less? Smile

Why ask for advice on it, if you have already made up your mind? Smile
I haven't made up my mind. Between the 8120 and the 8150 I would rather choose the 8120.

I'm actually really indecisive, since this is the fifth thread that I've posted on this subject on the TC, TT, and Tom's Hardware forums over the period of 13 months, and I've asked for advice from lots of people personally. Even after buying it I'm still indecisive. Unsure

So no, I haven't made up my mind.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - Nipper - 2012-08-16 13:30

Wait, you are still indecisive after having purchased the parts you decided on?

Isn't this an expensive habit? Buying loads of parts you decide you undecide to use.


RE: New PC Advice - Not sure where to start. - FR4NOx - 2012-08-16 15:37

(2012-08-16 13:30)Nipper Wrote:  Wait, you are still indecisive after having purchased the parts you decided on?

Isn't this an expensive habit? Buying loads of parts you decide you undecide to use.

No, that's not what it is. It's just feeling that what I have already isn't good enough. Usually I get it about my G27 because I hate the shifter design and my old G27 was really loud and rough (RMAed).

You last sentence doesn't make any sense. How do I decide I undecide to use something? The only computer hardware I've gotten within 12 months was my laptop as a gift (would have been fine if it had as least a 520m in it) and now every time I boot up this craptop it says that Windows didn't shut down properly, not to mention most of the programs crash often and I get BSODs when I play LFS.

Now, I'm in the market for something usable, but I'm never sure of what I actually need in terms of computer power.

Also, it can't be an expensive habit for me since I never get money. I sell stuff to buy stuff that I actually use.