+ Refund request..? (Approved by BP)

[AOR Nova]

- Your LFS Username: microspecv
- Their LFS Username (if applicable - the person who took your money): (Suspect) and Adrian who set fine

- Time & Date of Incident: 2018-01-15, 18:31

- Replay / Screenshot Link:

- Replay Timestamps: NIL

- Reasons as to why you think you deserve a refund:
Why did I get fined? If it was due to a chase + fine I did a day or so ago - I validated the reasoning behind the fine (forgot to whom), and explained it over and over several times. I will not take this cop warning/incorrect fine lightly. I believe my fine was correct. And even if it wasn't, how am I on my final warning when I've only received this so far (for purely Copping-related incidents)?

//
One guy had flipped on middle of the street in dangerous position, and two guys started helping him. After failed attempts, the flip-ee then called for a tow, to which I responded. When I arrived, I requested for the two people to cease helping as the tow responder has arrived to take the tow.
However, both of them continued and were ramming the flipped car quite hard, even after I'm positioned to roll him over gently. They kept doing so, despite several warnings, and I couldn't even get into position, let alone commence my tow.


The two civilians failed to listen, and continued to disrupt the tow and keep shoving the guy away, when I'm trying to line up a "rb tire flip" or a rear bumper flip. Gave a few clear warnings to vacate the area and stop their useless help, after a few more warnings, I fined the 1st "helper" for failure to move (disrupting a tow when told to go away, hence such).
My fine was fully justified.

I suppose once a Tow/Med/Res/Cop has arrived at the tow location, the job and priority goes to him/her thus everyone around needs to abide by whatever the tow says? Even if the flip-ee allows for civilian help, I do believe the tow responder has the last say on the situation and can override the flip-ee's decision based on the situation? Because if not, a 5 second flip can take 5 minutes, about what happened with mine, which is kind of silly.


Please explain in depth if I'm totally wrong with this. And if I am, shouldn't there be a much clear sanction or regulation regarding how civilians tow, and also, whether the civilian can continue to help even when a Med or Tow arrives at the towing process? Surely not one can repeatedly disrupt a tow even after the tow has clearly instructed he/she to stop helping, let alone two working in tandem.

Cheers

[[TC]►BP◄]

There is nothing in any of our official documentation which suggests that civilians must move aside to let someone else (i.e. med/res/tow/cop) tow. That also means a fine for "Failure to move for police/emergency vehicles" is inappropriate. To my understanding, that fine is for people who are not yielding for a cop in chase (which is also against the rules), or a cop / emergency vehicle driving whilst on their way (responding) to a call. AFAIK there is even a question or answer (correct answer) in the InSim tests stating that civilians have as much right to tow someone as a person playing as an official role.

I can't look at the moment, but going from memory you do have numerous cop warnings, so it makes sense that this is labelled as a final cop warning.

I hope this clears it up.

Thanks

[AOR Nova]

(2018-01-15 11:02)BP Wrote:  There is nothing in any of our official documentation which suggests that civilians must move aside to let someone else (i.e. med/res/tow/cop) tow. That also means a fine for "Failure to move for police/emergency vehicles" is inappropriate.

Thus the regulations/documentation in regard to that particular Fine reason is vague and it should be updated so as to prevent further misunderstanding, yes?
I only fined because I felt it was appropriate to the situation, and as there was no proper ruling going on for such a situation, I went ahead with it.

(2018-01-15 11:02)BP Wrote:  To my understanding, that fine is for people who are not yielding for a cop in chase (which is also against the rules), or a cop / emergency vehicle driving whilst on their way (responding) to a call. AFAIK there is even a question or answer (correct answer) in the InSim tests stating that civilians have as much right to tow someone as a person playing as an official role.

I agree that while the cop has blues and twos on, yes, the rule applies henceforth. However, what happens when the cop isn't on sirens? Does that mean he/she has to determine if the fine reason is subjective for the situation by himself? (Which I did, and apparently it's wrong).

"...civilians have as much right to tow someone as a person playing as an official role"

Again, this appears to be only when it's civilian and the flipped car alone. Nothing is said when a federal vehicle or tow arrives, what happens next, or what is or is not allowed.
And if the civilian does indeed have an equal towing right to a official tow (which I find is hugely discriminating and makes the Tow rank particularly useless),
Shouldn't the rules guiding this be amended so as to limit, to a certain extent, a civilian's role with tow; or more to point, what a civilian can and can not do in the presense of an official tow-er, so as to lessen those chaotic towing scenarios?
I strongly believe each rank has a purpose and should have incentives to encourage (action of rank) playing in game. If a civilian were to have all the rights a tow has, what's the point of a tow? You'd be getting the rank just to use winch and ramp, while civilians can just ram a flipped car, flip it over, and conclude the tow then and there?

Seems odd to me.

(2018-01-15 11:02)BP Wrote:  I can't look at the moment, but going from memory you do have numerous cop warnings, so it makes sense that this is labelled as a final cop warning.

Funny, as I too do not remember having more than 1 other formal warning.

Hope to hear from your opinion soon,

Cheers
Nova

[[TC]►BP◄]

The rules can possibly be made more clear, and we will look into that. But I must reiterate that there is nothing saying a civilian can't participate in tow activities whenever he/she wants, therefore it may have been unwise selecting a fine based upon this, yes?

A tow/med/res/cop can politely ask the person to go away, but the civilian does not have to oblige (I think that is even what the InSim test question I was referring to was about). If I recall correctly, your attitude was pretty poor when asking the civilian to move? (Even saying "piss off" at one point?)

We will likely make an official clarification to avoid further rare cases like this one. I'll also discuss with Adrian about this warning.

Be patient during this time.

Thank you

[AOR Nova]

Hmm. I do apologise for the 'piss off bit', a bit too nervey. Will watch that. But I did request at the start several times over and over to move, so it got to me eventually :/

Anyways,

"The rules can possibly be made more clear, and we will look into that. But I must reiterate that there is nothing saying a civilian can't participate in tow activities whenever he/she wants, therefore it may have been unwise selecting a fine based upon this, yes?"

> I was wise to how the fine was being issued and the reason behind it. The reason was not that he was towing someone -
it was that with my presense, and me telling them to move (remember I do not know the "civs can tow or not" rule as its vague, and i misinterpereted it), and them continuing to knock the flipped user around with little care, and preventing and obstructing me from carrying out my own work (not to mention ramming the flipped car into me, whether tow attempt or not); that I felt warranted the fine.

Again, there is nothing saying that he can't participate wholly in a tow, but there is also nothing saying he can, especially once a tow has arrived to take over. I'm reiterating on the 'vagueness' bit. If it was made clear in the cop guide when I read it, that a civilian can partake in a tow alongside a official Tow even after being told to move, then I wouldn't have fined the lad, and this whole shambles between 1 rule wouldn't happen

That's why I'm slightly upset about the warning, because I've done something that isn't clearly stated and/or regulated either way. I had to take that into account, and draw a quick decision, and thus in the end I felt that the fine was justified and a reason was behind it.


Theres always a fine line (or fine print, in this matter), and a need for clarity in each rule, as well as for every rule to be in black and white, so that misinterpretations, misjudgements and human error would not take place.
I hope I've brought that to awareness now, and that the rulebook will be audited to include such a reminder/rule.

Would definitely appreciate if this can be further looked into and the warning is revoked.



Cheers

p.s-----
I would have appreciated that an in-game, email, or forum PM clarification on the matter before the warning was placed, as at that point, only one side of the story was heard.
Even on race server moderation with noobs and newbies, we have to at least understand both ends to some degree. Blatantly issuing a warning leaving the user in the dark, I personally feel is not the way to pursue matters.

If my URS (or someone else's) was far poorer than mine, and an admin action was issued without hearing the offendee (user,), a subsequent cop revoke, kick or ban would have been issued, I wouldn't think the matter would be discussed over this calmly and formally if that happened.

Yes, if it was clear as day, or a clear breakage of the rules and regos, then by all means, issue the fine. However, the fact that I was misguided by a vague rule, and instantly issued a warning and not given a chance to explain really what happened.

[Redacted]
I therefore sincerely hope this is a one off.
G'day.

[[TC]►BP◄]

You are making this out to be a bigger issue than it is. Adrian didn't do anything wrong, but we recognise that our official documentation could be clearer. This is a rare issue in the first place.

Confirmable warnings are typically issued when a user is offline. Adrian decided there was sufficient evidence / grounds for a warning here. You are now here posting a thread about it and we're looking into it for you.

I'm sorry if you're doubting your "legitimacy" in having submitted an admin application, but if you're thinking of withdrawing it - there is no need. =]

Thanks for your concerns, we'll get back to you later.

Side note: I'm not sure if you're using Google Translate or if you've just swallowed a thesaurus, but it is quite hard to read your post when you're using as many long words as possible, even when they don't add anything to your post.

[AOR Nova]

Noted with thanks.

[[TC]►BP◄]

Hi Nova,

Thanks for your patience.

I've confirmed internally that the fine you used was definitely not designed for these situations. However, the fine list will certainly be made more clear to avoid further rare situations like this one.

I'll remove your warning from your record and replace it with a simple note saying you are now aware this was not the correct use for the fine.

I'll leave this thread open just in case you want to say something else.

[AOR Nova]

Hey BP,

Thanks mate, appreciated. Nothing else to note down on this so thread can be closed on my request.

[[TC]►BP◄]

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