So I'm really confused. Today a MED drove past me with Siren 5 and strobe on when [u]not[/b] going to assist a Tow job.
When I asked they replied with: ''I'm training so I don't crash when on the way to a real job''.
I told them: ''So a cop can use siren 5 and strobe when not in a chase and say ''they're training so they don't crash in a real chase?''
They replied: ''Cops are different''
(I can upload a replay if asked, I just did this to avoid singling people out.)
I couldn't be bothered with the argument so I just decided to say it here.
This has happened a few times, a MED has no extra rights apart from use of Siren 5 and Strobe, and also a Medic skin. But apart from that, they're a civillian, so surely they can['t use Siren and Strobe for no good reason? I mean, ''training'' is surely not a reasonable excuse. If you need training, surely go and get cop training, it's near enough the same thing?
Can we have some rules written into the TC rulebook about MED's?
(2012-10-06 09:33)TheSAgibbs Wrote: [ -> ]... a MED has no extra rights apart from use of Siren 5 and Strobe...
Strictly speaking, not even that unless you were reading different rules then I did.
They're currently moving in some grey-area, admins do tolerate this as long those meds don't cause problems doing it. There have been several attempts, privately as well as publicly, but they usually stalled and didn't yield any result. As far I can remember.
Using siren & strobe for no reason (ie not going to a crash/tow job) is beyond the grey area that Chuck mentioned. They shouldn't do it.
(2012-10-06 19:16)Elmo Wrote: [ -> ]Using siren & strobe for no reason (ie not going to a crash/tow job) is beyond the grey area that Chuck mentioned. They shouldn't do it.
Its a blue light run right? Just like VCU's and HwA are allowed.
(2012-10-06 21:39)Bez Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-10-06 19:16)Elmo Wrote: [ -> ]Using siren & strobe for no reason (ie not going to a crash/tow job) is beyond the grey area that Chuck mentioned. They shouldn't do it.
Just like VCU's and HwA are allowed.
Indeed, as you said they are allowed.
In the same way that a civilian can't use horn 5. "Just like cops are allowed" is not a valid argument in either case, but logically the same, I believe.
(2012-10-06 21:39)Bez Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-10-06 19:16)Elmo Wrote: [ -> ]Using siren & strobe for no reason (ie not going to a crash/tow job) is beyond the grey area that Chuck mentioned. They shouldn't do it.
Its a blue light run right? Just like VCU's and HwA are allowed.
AFAIK We were discussing MEDs here?
(2012-10-06 22:33)Nitros Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-10-06 21:39)Bez Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-10-06 19:16)Elmo Wrote: [ -> ]Using siren & strobe for no reason (ie not going to a crash/tow job) is beyond the grey area that Chuck mentioned. They shouldn't do it.
Just like VCU's and HwA are allowed.
Indeed, as you said they are allowed.
In the same way that a civilian can't use horn 5. "Just like cops are allowed" is not a valid argument in either case, but logically the same, I believe.
Comparing civilians to cops is something totally different, whereas cops, VCU's and HwA's got (roughly) the same rights.
(2012-10-07 09:43)KaraK Wrote: [ -> ]Comparing civilians to cops is something totally different, whereas cops, VCU's and HwA's got (roughly) the same rights.
I don't even understand your logic here. Do you have an argument/point?
VCU, COP and HWA have different rights. They may share some common rights, or be a subset of another - but that is still a distinct subset, hence the different name.
I mean, re-read your statement, by using 'roughly' you acknowledge that they are different - but try to say they are only a little different? But I don't get your point - the little difference are the differences which (forgive me for spelling this out) make them different.
I'm replying to this discussion, but I still don't see why this changes anything to do with MEDs? Can you spell out what you are trying to argue?
I am saying that comparing cops to civilians is something you shouldn't do, as they are something totally different, plus what they can and can't do is explained in the rules.
VCU's and cops have the exact same role on the servers, so what's the problem in comparing those?
And I replied because you're saying that comparing cops with VCU's is the same as comparing cops with civilians. Which it isn't at all.
Or I massively misread your post, care to rephrase?
(2012-10-07 12:01)KaraK Wrote: [ -> ]VCU's and cops have the exact same role on the servers, so what's the problem in comparing those?
Your premise is incorrect.
They are not exactly the same, and I don't know where you got the idea they were.
You yourself even said they weren't the same, as you used 'roughly' the same - which means there are differences (in at least some way).
I have no problem comparing them, in the same way I don't mind comparing a cop to a tow. It is a different tag with different rules. Just because some of the rules overlap, doesn't mean they are the same.
Like i asked before, can you explain to me where any of this relates to medics? or are you just stirring for the sake of it?
Dunno why we're not using the old thread to refer from for this discussion. Yeah it will be bumped, but rather that than a new one pops up every now and then, repeating itselfs.
Anyway, i would like to add my two cents into the matter. I'm not driving much anymore so i don't know how far the insim has developed with what has been implemented and not, so bear with me.
After having read the previous thread, i just find all this silly.. I mean seriously.
[MED] and [RES] are Roleplay-tags, theres nothing that can deny that.
But how is it in real life then? Yeah thats right, they use strobes and sirens because they are an emergency vehicle.
So i find it really silly that they are not allowed to use none of it, when responding to a call. Sure i agree they shouldn't be availible to use the visual siren as cops have, for obvious reasons. As they need to know the difference if it's a cop approaching or not. Civilians must and should move for visual sirens but not be obligated to move for normal horn sirens, but they should if they have common sense. Why? Because it might be an roleplaying emergency vehicle approaching.
Now most of you will probably start arguing saying that they must move for normal horn sirens as well as visual ones. But when a cop entering a chase, they will automaticly get the visual siren on. And i feel it's not really necessary then, as they technically shouldn't be in any chase at the time then.
And the insim could be reworked for a better purpose making it possible for roleplaying emergency vehicles having their abilitys and exist without causing troubles. [MED] and [RES] should share the same feature as with TOW's, that they can respond to calls, and use caution and hazard signs. Only difference is that, while they are responding to a call (in the tracker) [MED] and [RES] can not be chased at the time.
So it says something like "Cannot chase car due to responding to emergency call." for the cops. I don't see how this can cause any trouble at all to be honest, and neither can it be abused with fake calls, since you will see if they are responding to a real one or not..
Yes there is a difference, that we currently have '!calltow' command which will print they are in need of an tow and that the tow answers on it. But what if we re-work it to a new command like '!callhelp', so all 3 shares the same.
You don't see how letting people 'respond to emergancies' (which aren't real, because there is nothing like that in LFS, which is time sensitive) ie speed/do whatever without being chased is open for abuse?
I feel like myself and others have explained this point to death in every thread.
What's so wrong about realism? The whole point of an simulator is to attempt to simulate real factors as much as possible. And as equally as an tow responses to an towcall, i don't see how [MED] & [RES] is supposed to be less real? They have an call to respond to as well, the only difference is that they might re-direct the traffic in another direction or block a lane until it's safe again, and not to mention to make the traffic more aware that it is a major crash ahead with hazard signs.
Everything can be abused in one way or another. So that doesn't hold as an argument to turn it down. The point is to minimize these factors as much as possible. Otherwise you could just remove the whole insim, just because it COULD be abused.
And have you ever seen a police, chase an fire truck or ambulance in duty? Guess not.
(2012-10-07 19:27)NVK Wrote: [ -> ]What's so wrong about realism? The whole point of an simulator is to attempt to simulate real factors as much as possible. And as equally as an tow responses to an towcall, i don't see how [MED] & [RES] is supposed to be less real? They have an call to respond to as well, the only difference is that they might re-direct the traffic in another direction or block a lane until it's safe again, and not to mention to make the traffic more aware that it is a major crash ahead with hazard signs.
Everything can be abused in one way or another. So that doesn't hold as an argument to turn it down. The point is to minimize these factors as much as possible. Otherwise you could just remove the whole insim, just because it COULD be abused.
And have you ever seen a police, chase an fire truck or ambulance in duty? Guess not.
Its all anti-noob thats all. You might aswell give up now buddy its been like this forever. I go by; If VCU and HwA can do blue light runs so can MED's i always used to do them.
The end
(2012-10-07 19:55)Bez Wrote: [ -> ]You might aswell give up now buddy its been like this forever.
You may not have realised, but i've been here longer than you.
Not that it matters, but either way we should never give up. Then there wouldn't be a point in trying in the first place.
How about using a note of realism for our realism? There's different 'Priorities' (at least in North America) of response. Code 3 is Lights and Sirens all the way, highest priority. Code 2 is lights only, sirens where required. Something along those lines would work -- COPs can use Code 2 or 3, MED and RES are restricted to responding with Code 2.
Also, at least giving the !caution / !hazard ability would be incredibly useful. A car turned over on the AB a few days ago turned into a massive airborne pileup. You can paint the rear of your tow electric green, but it's barely enough time to slow down or stop, best hope is that drivers are watching and can avoid.
(2012-10-07 14:05)Nitros Wrote: [ -> ]You don't see how letting people 'respond to emergancies' (which aren't real, because there is nothing like that in LFS, which is time sensitive) ie speed/do whatever without being chased is open for abuse?
I feel like myself and others have explained this point to death in every thread.
The question posed in TheSAgibbs' post is about MEDs speeding/doing whatever
while not responding to an incident. This is exactly the kind of abuse that we'd like to avoid.
(2012-10-07 19:55)Bez Wrote: [ -> ]I go by; If VCU and HwA can do blue light runs so can MED's i always used to do them.
The end
As I said in the leeway thread, just because you do it doesn't mean you should.
In this case, you're really stretching your implications there...
Lets think through this one.
Statement of fact: VCU and HwA are allowed to do blue light runs
(ignoring the fact that this isn't strictly true for HwA, but that's an unnecessary complication here)
COPs are
very similar to VCU, but
are not allowed to do blue light runs. In fact, that's pretty much the only difference as far as their role is concerned.
What else stands out w.r.t. VCU and HwA being different from COP? VCU & HwA are for TCs only. This is in fact the reason why VCU and HwA are allowed to do blue light runs - because being TC only, they are very well regulated thus avoiding any likely abuse.
MEDs on the other hand are quite different from VCU and HwA. They are not TC only, they cannot use visual siren, they have no InSim support etc.
How then can you possibly form the link that "VCU and HwA can do blue light runs, so MEDs must be allowed to as well", especially when even COPs aren't allowed to do them?
(2012-10-07 20:25)railker Wrote: [ -> ]How about using a note of realism for our realism? There's different 'Priorities' (at least in North America) of response. Code 3 is Lights and Sirens all the way, highest priority. Code 2 is lights only, sirens where required. Something along those lines would work -- COPs can use Code 2 or 3, MED and RES are restricted to responding with Code 2.
We have something similar with ambulances in the UK - there are 3 response grades based on priority (I forget the exact names)
Lights & Siren
Lights only
No lights or siren
The third doesn't usually apply to emergency ambulances though, that role is typically done by non-emergency ambulances which are basically minibuses with ambulance markings (though some do have lights & sirens fitted if needed).
Sorry, slightly OT but nevertheless. Why is there a "Lights only" ? I mean does such a vehicle have priority over other traffic or not? Standing in a traffic-light-queue with lights on waiting for green seems pointless.
Sirens were invented to warn others which are not in the direct view of such a vehicle, for instance at crossings or intersections, but approaching a crossing with lights but not sirens would only cause mayhem there and is extremely dangerous for everyone involved.
(2012-10-08 06:11)Chuck Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, slightly OT but nevertheless. Why is there a "Lights only" ? I mean does such a vehicle have priority over other traffic or not? Standing in a traffic-light-queue with lights on waiting for green seems pointless.
Sirens were invented to warn others which are not in the direct view of such a vehicle, for instance at crossings or intersections, but approaching a crossing with lights but not sirens would only cause mayhem there and is extremely dangerous for everyone involved.
In Denmark at least, lights only has same priority over other traffic as lights and siren. Lights only in an ambulance vehicle is usually used when a patient isnt in a critical condition and dont need the stress a siren can make or at night when there are little to none traffic, to avoid unnecessary noise while people are sleeping, etc.