Punishment for WW crashes

[◄Chuck►]

So you wanted to have a word, I'm listening.

Imagine a system can reliably identify the person who caused a wrong-way crash, what would be the appropriate punishment for these players?

General rules for everyone on the server:
https://world.city-driving.co.uk/?page=rules#r1.2
https://world.city-driving.co.uk/?page=rules#r1.3

Additional rules for suspects:
https://world.city-driving.co.uk/?page=rules#r3.2

Additional rules for cops in chase:
https://world.city-driving.co.uk/?page=rules#r5.1

So we have 3 groups to judge on:
1: Suspects in chase
2: Cops in chase
3: Everyone else

Here are some of the means at our disposal (however, anything technically doable is possible)

- Do nothing at all
- A "friendly" chat message
- Auto-kick
- Auto-ban
- Auto-spec
- Forced spec for a certain time
- UF1 restriction (or other temporary restriction on car choice)
- Temporary intake restriction
- Auto-report
- Auto-!sorry
- Other fixed monetary compensation
- Cop licence suspensions
- Penalty points bearing other disadvantages



So, what's it gonna be?

[[TC]►BP◄]

Personal opinion, but I think even with a so-called reliable* system, automated restrictions / kicks / bans are a slippery slope - not least because an admin may want to handle it a specific way, where the automated punishment may actually not be enough given the context.

I think an automated !spec could be acceptable for a person who wrong-side crashes into somebody else (again assuming the system is completely reliable) as well as a clear message on their screen about their conduct. The warning could even say that this is an automated action and that further action can still be taken against them (eg admin witnessed it, or victim reports it on the forum) for this crash. An automated note could also be added to their URS.

*I am concerned about someone being nudged to the wrong side of the road by someone else, and hitting somebody as a result. This definitely happens on occasion. Of course, if someone is nudged to the wrong side and then they actively choose to continue down the wrong side, that's on them. But I've seen numerous cases of what I've described, so as long as the system can account for that then it's fine.

[KooKoo]

Here’s my take;


After considering the potential implementation of a system to reliably identify and punish individuals responsible for wrong-way crashes, introducing such a system is unnecessary at this time. Here's why:

1. The current system or “culture” encourages players to resolve issues amongst themselves. When a crash occurs, players can offer compensation via !sorry or apologize or both. This helps in fostering a cooperative and respectful environment.

2. For more persistent or severe issues, the !report feature allows players to bring matters to the attention of the admin team and places a note on their URS. This ensures that any repeat offenders or particularly disruptive behavior is addressed appropriately. To add on that, there’s also a “User Report” section in the forums for serious violations.

3. Recently, there has been a notable increase in admin activity, which ensures that any serious incidents are promptly managed. This presence itself acts as a deterrent for those who violate the rules.

4. We already have a comprehensive set of rules and punishments in place for suspects in chase, cops in chase, and all other players.

5. Cops play a crucial role in TC and it is one of the most important and entertaining aspect of the server, that is to maintain order by chasing and fining players who violate non-serious traffic rules and serious traffic rules which violate important server rules, including wrong-way driving and intentional crashing. These violations should be more heavily penalized or even added to the URS, reflecting that the player has been fined for such offenses. This is a power already within the cops ability, but leveraging it will perhaps effectively enforce important server standards you wish to achieve by these “auto” mechanisms. (It’s true, AI is stealing our jobs even in TC)

[[RDSR] Robis]

Each situation can be different with different reasons of why person ended up in the wrong side and caused a crash.

Police can fine for wrong side driving or causing an accident (accident fines could easily be raised).
If administrator is online - then !tc
If no administrator is online then forum report.
-> Then depending from the situation if it's server ban, cop rights removing etc.


Can your system read if suspect has been pitted into the layout and with lfs physics sent flying into the wrong-way causing crash?
Can your system for example is able to tell when cop is using wrong way, for minimum of time, to gain an advantage which is allowed by the rules?
Can your system tell when tow hits car that's on the roof, for example if it's only doable with getting up to speed while going wrong direction?
Can your system tell if a bike hasn't been launched into the wrong side and onto another car coming head on?
What if you come around blind corner and to avoid crashing car in front of you (on your lane) you enter ww to avoid it and accidently cause a crash?


But in general the whole ideology in the core is just weird - how to PUNISH. Maybe instead could come up with the system that invites players to drive more by the rules. Besides that could be connected with some sort of grinding system or achievement/goal system.

[[TC]►Bez◄]

I don't agree with relying solely on automated systems for traffic management for one simple reason: the system cannot accurately assess how accidents occur. As mentioned earlier, users can be unintentionally pushed onto the wrong side of the road or even pitted by other drivers. While accidents are a normal part of driving, consistent driving on the wrong side of the road should be addressed. However, I believe an automated system alone lacks the capability to determine who is at fault in these situations 100% of the time.

At the very least, there should be a mechanism to flag individuals for further review. For instance, if a driver is repeatedly detected driving on the wrong side of the road and causing accidents, a notice should be displayed on their screen. The message could be something like:

"You have been detected driving on the wrong side of the road and causing accidents repeatedly. Please ensure you drive on the correct side of the road ((LEFT/RIGHT) insim to detect on the map's traffic direction). This is a warning. Further punishment will follow."

We could also implement a message similar to our "User is being shown a redcard" notification for admins. This would allow us to pause our driving, review the user in question, and take further action if necessary.

[◄Chuck►]

(2024-08-05 14:05)Robis Wrote:  But in general the whole ideology in the core is just weird - how to PUNISH. Maybe instead could come up with the system that invites players to drive more by the rules...

If you have an idea for that, I'd be glad to hear about it. But I think that's actually impossible. Playing by the rules should be the standard, without being invited by rewards of any kind. And even if, it would automatically be seen as a punishment against those who not play by rules.

[Adorable]

Restriction to bicycle.

[Felipe Jardim]

I agree with what Bez said in his post. Accidents happen and sometimes are completely unintentional. But if the system can accurately pinpoint the person who actually caused the accident and keep a record of this, then the player can be flagged and notified via a message similar to the yellow card, and also flagged so admins can see this live as it happens. Also offer a cooldown period as a "statute of limitations" so a ww crash 3hrs ago doesn't go against this a second crash 3hrs later (could also be KM based)

And a fixed rate compensation like 50/100E wouldn't be a bad idea if a crash occurs in the zones detected by the INSIM, that way everyone could go on about their day without massive drama and uncompleted sentences such as "?"

If the offenses are too often (like 5 within 5 minutes as an example) maybe an AUTO KICK feature would also be nice. eliminate ww crash records in safe zones and other designated stunt zones for the mess boys, allowing guys like RedJohn and Petsu to exert their IQ levels without getting punished.

[THE WIZARD DK]

(2024-08-05 18:29)Bez Wrote:  I don't agree with relying solely on automated systems for traffic management for one simple reason: the system cannot accurately assess how accidents occur. As mentioned earlier, users can be unintentionally pushed onto the wrong side of the road or even pitted by other drivers.

This part actually came to play for me recently. taxi slams brakes infront of me so could not avoid a hit. maybe i was a bit too close. unknowingly BP apparently watched the replay but came to the conclusion we both were at fault,which i didnt agree with as this happened in the underpass in the bridge section in Fernbay and would for anyone else be a brake test from the car infront. if i remember correct that made me go a bit to next lane(which in the specific area luckily is a left turn lane)which is where the car infront "should" have been in, but if this happened by insim in a ww lane, that would be unfair to be punished for that. i also think the whole idea with Cops & Robbers would be to have the cop chase you, even if clocked. i mean isnt that the whole fun part. in general im against automated punishments as they are more likely to make a mistake,as seen with self-driving vehicles IRL. so i agree with Bez too on this one.

(2024-08-05 06:07)Chuck Wrote:  - Auto-kick
- Auto-ban
- Auto-spec
- Auto-report
- Auto-!sorry

- Auto-kick = No
- Auto-ban = No
- Auto-spec = in drastic cases maybe.
- Auto-report = No
- Auto-!sorry = Yes, but can also make mistakes because who hit who?

(2024-08-05 06:21)BP Wrote:  Personal opinion, but I think even with a so-called reliable* system, automated restrictions / kicks / bans are a slippery slope -

Agree

(2024-08-05 14:05)Robis Wrote:  But in general the whole ideology in the core is just weird

that...i agree with.
EDIT: the flash coming from clocking is literally all over the screen which IRL would blind a driver. idk if possible to(preferred not having it at all)or at least it only flash inside the cockpit of the car. (may also be trggering epilepsy for people having that)(no i dont have it but any strobe light could trigger such an attack)
EDIT2: i get technology is going ahead and its in most cases a good thing. but as Robis said its weird in games. the best way i can describe how scary it can be not to mention google,microsoft,openai,grok and all other AI have failed. in this current writing elon get hammered. i know this should not be here but someone thought it was a good idea. i disagree. try watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFaPFtrgt4

[◄Chuck►]

(2024-08-06 00:37)THE WIZARD DK Wrote:  This part actually came to play for me recently. taxi slams brakes infront of me so could not avoid a hit. maybe i was a bit too close. unknowingly BP apparently watched the replay but came to the conclusion we both were at fault,which i didnt agree with as this happened in the underpass in the bridge section in Fernbay and would for anyone else be a brake test from the car infront.

It's not about just any car collision, I'm talking about a car, that verifiably was driving in the right direction was hit by a car, that was verifiably driving in the wrong direction.
The detection is also not done by Insim, which always has the disadvantage of network latency, but on the client's side instead, using ax-objects. So the detection is actually very accurate.

The only uncertainty factor is that how did the car get wrong way in the first place. That needs to be evaluated. I am convinced though, that the data is good enough to do something with it, not necessarily bans though.

But maybe if someone chooses to do !report based on a detected crash, that report could, for instance, have a greater weight, as the report is backed up by factual evidence. The offender then still can come up with a reasonable explanation on what went wrong before the report is submitted.

[THE WIZARD DK]

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  It's not about just any car collision, I'm talking about a car, that verifiably was driving in the right direction was hit by a car, that was verifiably driving in the wrong direction.

in this case i hope you mean consistantly or repeatedly? thats how i understand it. then perhaps yes.

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  The detection is also not done by Insim, which always has the disadvantage of network latency, but on the client's side instead, using ax-objects. So the detection is actually very accurate.

yes this has been proven on many servers for quite some years by now. rarely it detects wrong but does happen.E:G: on rally servers sometimes you fly by a pole that can tilt over simply because you are extremly close to it but you dont hit and no detection of hitting is present but it still gets knocked over.i have seen that some times both on own and other servers.i agree is extremely rare,but it does happen.(dunno if better after LFS gets updates)

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  The only uncertainty factor is that how did the car get wrong way in the first place. That needs to be evaluated. I am convinced though, that the data is good enough to do something with it, not necessarily bans though.

"something" yes but i think there was a debate somewhere in LFS forums about this and also had no real solution. every ww and/or crash is different(the beauty of LFS)and insim cant make decisions on it, so maybe some sort of "bufferzone"?

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  But maybe if someone chooses to do !report based on a detected crash, that report could, for instance, have a greater weight, as the report is backed up by factual evidence. The offender then still can come up with a reasonable explanation on what went wrong before the report is submitted.

again as above perhaps a "bufferzone" but maybe could alert an admin there is a need to watch a replay via insim/discord or whatever is used and yes factual evidence could be in this way too. idk if its possible for insim to timestamp a replay? if possible it could be a mark on a replay given to both user and admin so it also is easier to find the exact detection spot. i think there will still be a margin of error that should be considered. we have seen before admins change decision after giving one. the "benefit of doubt" should always be present unless its verifiable fully. just a few thoughts.

(2024-08-05 06:07)Chuck Wrote:  - Auto-spec

would be the best compromise solution in most cases so everyone get time to think about what just happened. if you get banned you need to go through unban forum process first, if kicked i think it would create more frustration and perhaps more drama too,especially if people are not sure what happened.E.G. in some trucks you cant view the rear so you would need some time to figure out,as this reported case with myself in the kenya truck where i literally couldnt figure out where the(in that case)cop who hit me was as he was not visible in any mirrors(i for one adjust my mirrors on each car)but some cars have bad view tbh,i think i posted a screen of my view in that truck which shows only half the mirrors really due to the FOV is different from most other cars.actually there was 2 instances that day almost same but ruling was me sliding into a cop in one of them,which became my fault and the other was a cop sliding into me which became ruling towards the cop. so actually a good example there.

(2024-08-05 06:21)BP Wrote:  I think an automated !spec could be acceptable for a person who wrong-side crashes into somebody else (again assuming the system is completely reliable) as well as a clear message on their screen about their conduct.

so agree with this one too. however as said above there is instances where its hard to actually know when its on purpose and when its not. in future updates with more bumps and maybe rain a driver error that gets you into a ww slide could easy not be intentional (E.G. aqua planning/black ice etc.). in LFS current state wind alone can be the factor you loose grip. idk if common knowledge really but Microspec and myself found this out the hard way,but some racers already knew this can happen if /wind yes.maybe perhaps because it blows under the car causing it to loose grip. such instance would not be on purpose.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2071715#post2071715 & https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2071774#post2071774
i was one of "the others" in that. in patch, i think x35 i went 219kph in xfg on blackwood straight with 54kph wind in my rear and could take the turn too,so i guess its a really old issue with wind tbh.

[robo1990]

the best time i have ever seen this server flourish was around 2015 /2019 there was respect and admins was doing there work because there was a zero tolerance depending on the situation ranging from 3 days ban to 365 days or just a kick and stern warning. sometimes they can even just give u a message to let you know identify and respect the rules you broken so communication was good also. the problem with automated rules is you dont have the right decision per action due to other peoples actions also that could implacate a wrong decision then people will have to appeal all the time or you will be unnendated with reports of wrong doing. i appreciate the fact somthing is being done for this issue but try and simplify it like before it was fun it was safe and we was active thanks.

[P V L]

Hello, as there is nothing happening to WW drivers atm I may tell what would be fine for me.

I liked the autospec , we had it for like one and a half day til the restriction thing took over.

On the long run the 500 fine will stop people from going wrong way. A big extra on it was

that the cops did not need to follow a wrong way suspect at all. Just wait some seconds

and he was busted. Interesting side fact is that almost nobody was complaining, even it is

a harder punishment than the restrict thing. My personal favourite of course would be the

forced !sorry as its not only punishing the guy going wrong way but even giving the

compensation to the victim. Good thing with this is you may still go wrong way if there is

no traffic. So, watching map to see its free or get fined for a wrong way crash if it wasnt

seems fine to me. Before some people start to shout at me this would be good for P V L,

yes its my opinion and would benefit any guy that gets crashed by wrong way crashers.

Have a nice day, greets P V L.

[THE WIZARD DK]

(2024-08-11 07:26)P V L Wrote:  a harder punishment than the restrict thing. My personal favourite of course would be the forced !sorry as its not only punishing the guy going wrong way but even giving the compensation to the victim.
Have a nice day, greets P V L.

thats the whole issue Peter.
insim can only detect a crash. but not who is victim and who is guilty.
i would also be up for the !sorry autopay but insim cant decide on this :/
Regards
Wiz

[P V L]

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  It's not about just any car collision, I'm talking about a car, that verifiably was driving in the right direction was hit by a car, that was verifiably driving in the wrong direction.
The detection is also not done by Insim, which always has the disadvantage of network latency, but on the client's side instead, using ax-objects. So the detection is actually very accurate.

The only uncertainty factor is that how did the car get wrong way in the first place. That needs to be evaluated. I am convinced though, that the data is good enough to do something with it, not necessarily bans though.

May have missed this.

[THE WIZARD DK]

(2024-08-11 12:24)P V L Wrote:  

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  It's not about just any car collision, I'm talking about a car, that verifiably was driving in the right direction was hit by a car, that was verifiably driving in the wrong direction.
The detection is also not done by Insim, which always has the disadvantage of network latency, but on the client's side instead, using ax-objects. So the detection is actually very accurate.

The only uncertainty factor is that how did the car get wrong way in the first place. That needs to be evaluated. I am convinced though, that the data is good enough to do something with it, not necessarily bans though.

May have missed this.

true insim can detect WW, but as you also said yourself, that would then be impossible to E.G. drive alone on a server using ww or if road is free ahead(minimap).

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  The only uncertainty factor is that how did the car get wrong way in the first place. That needs to be evaluated.

(2024-08-06 04:57)Chuck Wrote:  The detection is also not done by Insim, which always has the disadvantage of network latency, but on the client's side instead, using ax-objects.

(2024-08-11 12:19)THE WIZARD DK Wrote:  yes this has been proven on many servers for quite some years by now. rarely it detects wrong but does happen.E:G: on rally servers sometimes you fly by a pole that can tilt over simply because you are extremly close to it but you dont hit and no detection of hitting is present but it still gets knocked over.

place a rail infront of you on any track. drive extremely slowly into it. and detects nothing. if you just touch it, it will go oob because you are too near it and not respawn. it is this issue i like to bring into this conversation.

[Titan]

a very good approach to slow down the jokers who are constantly driving the WW

I would be in favor of a restriction... simple and effective... the -500 also has an effect...

it always plays a role why the driver went to the wrong side...

one thing is clear... the percentage of people who accidentally go to the wrong side is small...

that's why I think the restriction is best... for cops and suspects or normal drivers...

Chuck has described very well how it works...

[Fastranker1]

What if speccing the ww user right before the crash???