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**[TC] Brad** · 2012-12-15, 20:19

Fair play, I guess we can all agree to disagree and move on with our lives - something that 28 people do not have the chance to do now.

Sinoco · 2012-12-15, 20:34

(2012-12-15 20:08)Blade3562 Wrote: And supporting my point about gun laws. The massacre in china was over 20 people with a knife...So I have to cut my steak with a spoon according to your theory. Criminals can still get the goods if they are illegal, but good people cannot, so how could we be protected? Our police response time is 15 minutes in our town if you are lucky. And we only have 20,000-50,000 people!

Please do not misrepresent my argument. It does you no justice. I will wrap it up here by saying that in China, they do not have easy access to guns (4.9/100 people). The attacker in China could not access a gun, so instead he used a knife, which was unable to kill anyone, so no guns, no people dead. However, in the US, the attacker was easily able to find a firearm that was capable of killing 28 people. Understand that it is the gun laws that allow everybody to get ahold of the guns.

Nammi · 2012-12-15, 22:43

(2012-12-15 20:08)Blade3562 Wrote: I could care less about what people think about my viewpoints, I'm a realist. I work at a gas station while in college and have watched people abuse the system to buy junk food, alcohol, an such all on my dime. My sister has dyslexia as well, and yet the schools barely did anything and she lost the privilege in high school. My parents make too much money for me to qualify or any help or assistance, I had no support from the school with my want to succeed. Yet there were 20 special needs children who had an entire floor and a massive staff. I know they have different needs, but we were using textbooks from the 90s in 2011 while they got brand new technology yearly. I'm not trying to say ditch them or anything, but America has slipped back in education because of situations like this.

But audio jack validated my point. Society in Europe has a totally different view from over here. Europe is founded around the whole, while America is to succeed as an individual.

And supporting my point about gun laws. The massacre in china was over 20 people with a knife...So I have to cut my steak with a spoon according to your theory. Criminals can still get the goods if they are illegal, but good people cannot, so how could we be protected? Our police response time is 15 minutes in our town if you are lucky. And we only have 20,000-50,000 people!

First of all i'd say america slipped back in eucation because the republican party spend more all the money and actually even more on wars about oil.

All you say is basically that you are jealous of people who get a bit to ease their hard live when you have enough yourselfe, am i right? now thats the definition os selfishness.

and also: if the laws wouldn't make a difference at all then the whole world should be a warzone like the US, don't you think? It's allways funny how you state the facts that make you look like a joke: "we are living like 200 years ago, but we are proud of being uncivilised as we are" - speaking of broading OUR views. Closedeyes

Malibu · 2012-12-15, 23:00

(2012-12-15 17:32)Blade3562 Wrote: You also have to consider how much larger the US is and how many different cultures and lifestyles are hear.

Different cultures and lifestyles? 70% is a dedicated christian lmfao.

**KaraK [T]** · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 09:57 by KaraK.)

To be fair... There are a lot more people living in the US than there are in Western countries.
Thus many more retards walking around who are able to get a gun.

Here's a nice article, about the mass shooting incidents in the last 25 years.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news...92635.aspx

16 incidents (17 with this one included). 6 out of 17 happened in the USA, 9 happened in Europe, 1 in Asia and 1 in Australia.

Right now, there are 314,949,477 people living in the US. 502,519,900 people were living in the EU on January 1st, 2011. (And 33,400,000 living in Canada, just for Sinoco's argument)

You're all saying how America is stupid to have these gun laws which fail to prevent shootings, but if you look at what I wrote above, the EU has the same problem.
You're all talking here like you've forgotten what happened in Norway, or Germany a few years back.

Why has this thread turned into some sort of political debate about gun laws in the US? Surely this thread was made to raise awareness of what happened, and not to discuss how the US should solve this problem. Every country has this problem, however as the US is so much bigger than Britain, there's more possibility of it occuring over there.

Malibu · 2012-12-16, 10:08

(2012-12-16 09:56)KaraK Wrote: To be fair... There are a lot more people living in the US than there are in Western countries.
Thus many more retards walking around who are able to get a gun.

Here's a nice article, about the mass shooting incidents in the last 25 years.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news...92635.aspx

16 incidents (17 with this one included). 6 out of 17 happened in the USA, 9 happened in Europe, 1 in Asia and 1 in Australia.

Right now, there are 314,949,477 people living in the US. 502,519,900 people were living in the EU on January 1st, 2011. (And 33,400,000 living in Canada, just for Sinoco's argument)

You're all saying how America is stupid to have these gun laws which fail to prevent shootings, but if you look at what I wrote above, the EU has the same problem.
You're all talking here like you've forgotten what happened in Norway, or Germany a few years back.

Why has this thread turned into some sort of political debate about gun laws in the US? Surely this thread was made to raise awareness of what happened, and not to discuss how the US should solve this problem. Every country has this problem, however as the US is so much bigger than Britain, there's more possibility of it occuring over there.

Please show me the numbes for WESTERN Europe countries. Obviously we aren't stating Russia or other satellite states are much safer so the numbers for Europe are meaningless.

Malibu · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 10:38 by Malibu.)

Here's some statistics

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?k...erpage=250

Now USA is listed as number 28, you'd think that that isn't so bad. But before judging please look at what countries are above them, and where the western European countries are listed.

Blade3562 · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 13:25 by Blade3562.)

Charts like that make no sense. They are comparing any act of violence involving a firearm, including simple traffic stops. But it's just like DUIs/OVIs, it's a calculated risk. If you consider 10,000 firearm incidents vs the number of firearms, it's minuscule, less than DUI caused deaths by a longshot.

The ignorance displayed is just pathetic. It just shows the culture gap here is so large it will never be bridged. Another ex: Europe has how many speed cameras while the US is trying to outlaw them! The right to own firearms is something America was founded on when we broke away from England. The second amendment to the constitution and by far the best one. "the right to keep and bear arms" I do however believe firearm safety is severly lacking. I hate public ranges because people can be such idiots with something so powerful. Also on the culture gap, most of my liberal friends agree with my side on this situation for once. They actually think gun laws would hurt the public like I stated before.

Good read: http://m.capemaycountyherald.com/article...s+firearms

Edit: I was informed the thread still there, partial statement invalid and deleted.

**KaraK [T]** · 2012-12-16, 13:16

(2012-12-16 13:08)Blade3562 Wrote: The ignorance displayed is just pathetic. So much so that I created a thread to start showing some of our 100 plus firearms it got deleted. People couldn't even take a laugh about the zombie apocolypse.

It didn't get deleted, it got moved to the 16+ area.

Blade3562 · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 13:26 by Blade3562.)

(2012-12-16 13:16)KaraK Wrote: It didn't get deleted, it got moved to the 16+ area.

My phone won't link me to it! It keeps coming back negative... Maybe it's just my useless iPhone strikIng again!

Sinoco · 2012-12-16, 13:26

The only one displaying any sign of ignorance is you, Blade. We have done the research, we show you numbers, examples, facts. You just say that we're ignorant because the facts do not align with your opinion, because you are wrong. They are talking about homicides, people getting killed with a gun. In the US, more people are getting killed per 100,000 people than anywhere in Europe, and murders in the US by firearm are much, much higher, than anywhere in Europe. Just fyi, the USA has 5x the number of people than the UK, 220x the number of gun murders.

Blade3562 · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 13:44 by Blade3562.)

I have seen no concrete facts or proof. Just speculation and non official numbers. Iynorance is the fact that people think disarming everyone makes the world safe. I have several studies and proof that strict gun laws lead to more violence and crime. Europe has it's safety bubble that no one leaves. We live two totally different lifestyles. Understanding each one fully isn't possible.

I have enough information to debate this for years. I am one of the few Americans who would rather speak the truth than not defend himself. But that isn't the point of this thread. Someone went crazy and it's unfortunate what happened.

Here's another good article, no definate statistics in it. Just explains my viewpoint from a nicer persoective. http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles...ent-crimes

Sinoco · (This post was last modified: 2012-12-16 14:08 by Sinoco.)

(2012-12-16 13:33)Blade3562 Wrote: I have seen no concrete facts or proof. Just speculation and non official numbers. Iynorance is the fact that people think disarming everyone makes the world safe. I have several studies and proof that strict gun laws lead to more violence and crime. Europe has it's safety bubble that no one leaves. We live two totally different lifestyles. Understanding each one fully isn't possible.

I have enough information to debate this for years. I am one of the few Americans who would rather speak the truth than not defend himself. But that isn't the point of this thread. Someone went crazy and it's unfortunate what happened.

Here's another good article, no definate statistics in it. Just explains my viewpoint from a nicer persoective. http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles...ent-crimes

So you have no point thus you deny the numbers? You say you have enough information, yet you have none, no facts, no numbers, anything. The numbers for these surveys (in reference to the USA) are taken from your own government. But you would deny the UNODC, which also further pinpoints the percentage of homicides by firearms to just below 70%. That's why you have so many murders.

James · 2012-12-16, 14:11

Im sorry but from my point of view this thread really is getting out of hand.

Could we please just let this thread die ? It seems to have served its purpose already. Plus the thread direction turned west 2 pages ago.. Sad

Nammi · 2012-12-16, 14:41

(2012-12-16 13:33)Blade3562 Wrote: I have seen no concrete facts or proof. Just speculation and non official numbers. Iynorance is the fact that people think disarming everyone makes the world safe. I have several studies and proof that strict gun laws lead to more violence and crime. Europe has it's safety bubble that no one leaves. We live two totally different lifestyles. Understanding each one fully isn't possible.

then show those studies if they are so clear! BTW: the NRA is not an independant source, in case they have studies aswell Wink

also:

Wikipedia Wrote:Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts. Ignoramus is commonly used in the US, the UK, and Ireland as a term for someone who is willfully ignorant.

Malibu · 2012-12-16, 17:32

(2012-12-16 13:08)Blade3562 Wrote: The ignorance displayed is just pathetic. It just shows the culture gap here is so large it will never be bridged. Another ex: Europe has how many speed cameras while the US is trying to outlaw them! The right to own firearms is something America was founded on when we broke away from England. The second amendment to the constitution and by far the best one. "the right to keep and bear arms" I do however believe firearm safety is severly lacking. I hate public ranges because people can be such idiots with something so powerful. Also on the culture gap, most of my liberal friends agree with my side on this situation for once. They actually think gun laws would hurt the public like I stated before.

Maybe you should question USA's foundation. And I just showed you the numbers proving it's by far the worst one.

Besides, I'm not saying owning a weapon should be banned in total (even though I think that that would work the best), I'm just saying it requires more control over who owns a weapon, any medical/psychological history that could cause outrages etc. and proper storage for the weapon. You need common sense to handle such dangerous items, something many Americans seem to lack.

Street · 2012-12-16, 23:06

Lets ban all weapons and all wars must be fought with fluffy bunnies!

Is a statement similar in levels of ridiculousness to any statement claiming America, in comparison to basically every Western culture out there, does not have a problem with gun crime.

Looking past the major gun crime incidents (the majority of which have occurred in America recently, that have been reported. War and mass murder of innocent civilians technically constitutes gun crime, but the government sweep those under the rug and we should all listen to the governments because they have the best ideas), America has faaar more low key gun crime and shootings in comparison to, at least, the UK.

The most recent major gun crime incident happened incredibly close to me, Derrick Bird. He legally owned the weapons used, kept them locked in a gun cabinet with toughened glass, as per the UK's (INCREDIBLY STRICT) firearms laws dictates.

End result? Guns are a *Removed* stupid idea. The fact that certain civilians can still own a gun after rigorous background checks and use it in such a way is a really *Removed* stupid idea.

America's idea that ANY civilian can own a gun, is a really really *Removed* stupid idea.

There will be gun crime, but the fact of the matter is, these incidents are sensational. They're blown up by the media, and they glamourise the incidents, they turn the gunmen into celebrities.

It's partially the government, partially the world media, partially the people and mostly the guns. People will find ways to kill, but the statistics which have been provided by law enforcement agencies and can by corroborated with death and police records fairly clearly show that in the standard civilized set of western cultures, America has the worst gun crime.

The discussion about gun crime in America is very much on topic as this a topic about gun crime in America.

My hearts go out to the families of those involved and it's incredibly sad. But the entire event is part of a much much much bigger issue that will most likely never be addressed because apart from anything, it would be political suicide.

FR4NOx · 2012-12-17, 02:56

Stabbings are popular here, even though a 14 yr old shot himself in the face at school (with a sawed-off shotgun I think) and we were put on lockdown at school when someone was walking around emotionally distraught with a rifle.

Hm.

Honestly, it's not the gun that kills (doesn't make the choice to kill.). It's just a tool. We're generally raised to look up to soldiers as deities but we look down to police officers. We see police officers daily, but unless you live with one, you don't see soldiers often, and never in action doing their job.

If guns are made illegal, that doesn't mean they will stop. Illegal weapons have no problem being sold to people (think of drugs, people literally smoke marijuana in front of cops). Alcohol isn't much a problem (NH state sells it themselves) but people who choose to drive while intoxicated are.

There are two ways to end a problem: Micromanage it (aka. police state) or manipulate(discourage) people to not buy them ("Think of the kids!"..oh wait, the kids in CT. Heh.)

I think it's the education system. Kids believe what their parents tell them and live by what they're told. To give you an idea of my school, administrators and many teachers talk to you as if you're in 8 years old and that they are superior to you. Of course, my mom is Madea. Wink

Students hate the school and the teachers not because of the work, but because of the treatment. Graduates would agree with you. We have anarchists (+those potsmokers) and frequent protests because of this. Does anyone care? Nope. We pretend we didn't see it. We pretend we don't see anything. Whatever bothers us, we simply complain about it. What else can we do? Now here is where the thought of using a weapon might start to form. People mourn for American shootings (they don't care about anything outside the border unless it directly affects us, I try to be worldly). People realize that people only care when you/someone else is dead and it's all over the news. It's all in how you're raised. We do have anti-bullying programs in school but teachers generally don't adhere to them until they are reported to the school board. The board only does something about it for publicity. After the teacher is reported they become all sowwie and crap like that. (Ohhh I'm sorry. I didn't realize what was going on.)

The anti-bullying policies only keep us away from each other. Cliques are rampant, but no action. They battle on Facebook now.

Quote:Does anyone care? Nope. We pretend we didn't see it. We pretend we don't see anything. Whatever bothers us, we simply complain about it. What else can we do?

That's the ignorance many outsiders (like Europe) see from Americans. Americans like to live a happy, easy life. Whatever bothers them is either spewed out to a psychologist or locked away like nuclear waste. Ignorance means we refuse to learn what we don't like. (I don't need to explain that one) So, this means we turn to guns. With a gun, we can almost instantly remove a threat.

Of course, removing one means matching or overpowering that threat. If one has that power, they can be a threat. The idea behind removing guns, is to remove any possible threats. That would mean we would also need to remove any steak knives, thumb tacks, cars, plastic bags, alprazolam, dioxin, bicycles, textbooks, computers, socialization, people, religious texts, heavy machinery, motorcycles, forks, coffee tables, nightstands, lamps, lampshades, Internet, paper, writing utensils, glasses, gasoline, air fresheners, cleaning agents, nails, nailguns, drills, and high heel shoes (thin heel). Imagine all of the threats we encounter in our daily lives? Removing it doesn't end it. It only inconveniences the problem and makes it smarter. The threat is the external influences that make us who we are.

It's not the tool that's dangerous. It's what uses it.

Blade3562 · 2012-12-17, 04:40

Here's Morgan Freeman's, a major left wing guy, amazing statement. My friend just sent it to me, the media really does suck.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Saphira · 2012-12-17, 10:56

OK....
Let me give you the run down of AUTISM. (being a specialized autistic spectrum nurse) and have worked over 23yrs in the profession, maybe a bit of highlight of Autistic Spectrum Disorder may not go a miss.
Firstly Autism is a recognized disorder in which can affect anyone albeit from birth or later on in life diagnosed. Autism is a disorder in which the person is unable to process information around him/her, unable to judge, comprehend, see other views, speak for themselves, make decisions, make choices, alleviate things, unable to develop personal skills, communicative skills, unable to respond to everyday situations,unable to make achievements like we can, they are also over or under-sensitivity to sounds, touch, tastes, smells, light or colours etc. To us these are everyday normalities to a person with Autism they are hell, they cant process information like we do and make life choices like we can, there understanding of this world is completely different to ours, there own little world, unable to be broken out of. We/us can just get up in the morning and go about our daily business a person with Autism cant. They have to follow a stringent routine (everything done a certain way, in a certain order, put in a certain place, of certain colour, size, texture etcetc), the list is endless to say the least. To them is a world in which everything is unfamiliar, strange its an exhaustive battle from waking to going to sleep (even then sleeping has its own issues). what makes is even harder for a person with Autism is they can be unresponsive to people or focus intently on one item to the exclusion of others for long periods of time. An example of how there world is (The Scrabble Board). Play the Game!!. Board looks good with all the great words you have just spelt..Mess the board up...what do you have, an absolute messed up jumble of letters that makes no sense or meaning..(this is how an autistic person sees his/her world). People with autism don't necessarily have bad behavior either they can be just locked away in there own little world and all there day consists of is routine after routine done at a certain time in a certain way. Majority of people with Autism are unable to speak (classed at mute), there not being ignorant or not wanting to speak, some people with autism cant speak as they are unable to process information like we can, which gives us the ability to speak, form words, sentences, communicate freely. They dont have the ability to smile like we do or have social responsiveness.
To round Autism of
Impaired ability to make friends with peers
Impaired ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
Absence or impairment of imaginative and social play
Stereotyped, repetitive, or unusual use of language
Restricted patterns of interest that are abnormal in intensity or focus
Preoccupation with certain objects or subjects
Inflexible adherence to specific routines or rituals.

Saphira

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