- [TC] Josh and 6S Lowrider (Archived by Lampshade)

[cargame.nl]

Being chased for like 36 minutes... Being smashed out of bounds by [TC] Josh and then they say 3.4 you are busted blabla...

But I got back on the track without advantage and still auto-bust feature gets activated. So I disagree with it and some other guy (6S Lowrider) starts to say that I give my server a bad name? Wtf?

And now I got a 14 day ban because I say that these guys are pathetic and can't have a reasonable argument.

Well good luck with the servers and this [TC] Josh needs to read the rules himself first;

Quote:3.4. Out of bounds/Leaving track limits in a chase

If your car goes out of bounds, you must return to the track immediately, without gaining advantage. If you're stuck outside, you are expected to go to spec-mode (shift+s) or pits(shift+p) to trigger the Insim-autobust-sequence.

I'm not planning to revisit anyway say you can extend it to 999. Thanks!

* btw 200 Mb replay... Do you think I'm going to upload that? Crazy.

[[TC]»Pete«]

This report is being looked into. Please be patient.

[Josh]

Just to summarise,

There is also another factor here that determines what happens with the chase, however you weren't really listening nor giving me a chance to explain.

When you go out of bounds, you are busted. If you can get back on the track without gaining an advantage, you may carry on.

However, you can only carry on if all of the cops in the chase agree - once you have left the track and become busted, you can't automatically become un-busted so to speak.

In our chase, we decided we didn't want to carry on and we wanted the chase to end there. I told you that you were busted as you were out of bounds, and that you either had to Shift+P or come back on track and let us bust you. You completely ignored me and carried on driving.

When you were spectated from the track you just became rude and arrogant; calling the 3 of us "pussiez" and telling someone else to 'shut up'. At no point did you seem like you were listening to what I was trying to say and then came back and called everyone pathetic.

This will be formally reviewed by another member of management.

Josh.

[[TC]»Pete«]

The fact that you have failed to follow the simple "User Report Template" : http://forum.city-driving.co.uk/showthread.php?tid=1, it does not surprise me that you've been banned for disobeying server rules. It's written quite plainly:

http://www.city-driving.co.uk/rules Wrote:1.1. Respect other players.

Do not harass or abuse other players. They may be new to the game and not know the track or customs - help them, do not insult them. Always be aware other drivers may act unpredictably.

HOWEVER.

Rule 3.4 states the following:

http://www.city-driving.co.uk/rules Wrote:3.4. Out of bounds/Leaving track limits in a chase

If your car goes out of bounds, you must return to the track immediately, without gaining advantage. If you're stuck outside, you are expected to go to spec-mode (shift+s) or pits(shift+p) to trigger the Insim-autobust-sequence.

Being sent "OOB" does not necessarily mean you are auto-busted.

I will be looking over the incident shortly.

---

Cargame.nl Wrote:Being smashed out of bounds by [TC] Josh

You crashed of your own accord. The incident was no fault of Josh's.

---

Cargame.nl Wrote:...and some other guy (6S Lowrider) starts to say that I give my server a bad name? Wtf?

This isn't really worth reporting. I wouldn't report someone for saying I was giving my team a bad name, where would it get me.

[cargame.nl]

(2013-01-05 01:39)Josh Wrote:  You completely ignored me and carried on driving.

I did not, I made clear that I disagreed. I was busy to get back on the track in which I succeeded.

(2013-01-05 01:39)Josh Wrote:  When you were spectated from the track you just became rude and arrogant; calling the 3 of us "pussiez"

Yeah, I had to say pussy there because it's only you I'm afraid. The guy in the XFR [COP] Chief something followed every move I did so this;

(2013-01-05 01:39)Josh Wrote:  In our chase, we decided we didn't want to carry on

You just made that up. Don't make things up to get yourself a good story. I don't like that, it's called corruption.

(2013-01-05 01:48)Lampshade Wrote:  

Cargame.nl Wrote:Being smashed out of bounds by [TC] Josh

You crashed of your own accord. The incident was no fault of Josh's.

Well.. Not talking about "faults" here anyway. Lets say he blocked my path and the only thing I could do is crash into a barrier. But that doesn't really matter, its part of the fun. Well... It should be... Fun.

I explained to another team member on my Teamspeak, he asked what the goal of police chases was... Do you earn money? No you only loose money.. Its just for fun. Well, I think I need to rephrase that.. Its fun for some, there are people who just like to show that they have some extra controls and want to use that whatever the situation is. That isn't fun, thats pathetic.

(2013-01-05 01:48)Lampshade Wrote:  

Cargame.nl Wrote:...and some other guy (6S Lowrider) starts to say that I give my server a bad name? Wtf?

This isn't really worth reporting. I wouldn't report someone for saying I was giving my team a bad name, where would it get me.

I didn't intend to report that, it leaded to a kick/ban. Somebody interfered in the discussion which has -nothing- to do with it and also pointing out that I have to see myself as some sort of royal status because I coincidently run some other servers. Pisses me off, like I cannot have an argument because I do more than the average LFS user.

(2013-01-05 01:48)Lampshade Wrote:  The fact that you have failed to follow the simple "User Report Template" :

I've read it. At the time I didn't have usernames and I refuse to upload enormous MPRs on my low bandwidth line. Then I'm busy for at least one hour (!) what the hell do you think, I work for you? I just wanted to share my story so the rest here understand the hostility against TC cruisers from now on. I thought this was the best section but you can move it around, delete it.. I don't care.

Spend enough time, bye!

[[TC]»Pete«]

Cargame.nl Wrote:what the hell do you think, I work for you

When did we ever suggest that you were working for us? You made the user report and therefore if you want it dealing with, you have to provide the evidence.

Cargame.nl Wrote:I just wanted to share my story so the rest here understand the hostility against TC cruisers from now on.

I don't understand. You're going to be hostile towards TC cruisers from now on because of what exactly? You're holding a grudge against the entire team and community because of one, small incident. That's nonsensical.

---

Also, from the replay, you drove nearly 300m before re-entering the track. You did not enter the track immediately as stated in rule 3.4 and therefore you are breaching it. You also gained what could be classed as an unfair advantage because had you popped back onto the track where you were, you would probably have been busted. You avoided this by driving a bit further before rejoining.

[[TC]»Elmo«]

(2013-01-05 01:30)cargame.nl Wrote:  * btw 200 Mb replay... Do you think I'm going to upload that? Crazy.

130MB (compressed) isn't really that bad if you care enough to come on the forum to complain about it. We ask for a replay for a reason - how can we do anything about a report if we don't have any evidence?
We also expect you to look through the relevant part(s) of the replay yourself, as what actually happened is often not how you remember it (you should surely know this as a server admin yourself?).
We also request timestamps of the incident (which you should already know as you checked the replay yourself, right?) so we don't have to waste time scanning through an entire replay to find what may or may not have been the incident.

Luckily, I was on the server at the time, so I have the replay and was told roughly where to look. However, by rights, we should just dump this report as you seem not to have put any effort into it, but in the interests of being nice I have found the incident and will review it.


1. Josh did not "smash you out of bounds" You crashed of your own accord - you lost control on the grass and slid sideways into the end of a barrier, which flipped you out of bounds. You tapped Josh's car just after rebounding off the barrier, but it almost certainly didn't make any significant difference.

2. You didn't attempt to get back on the track, instead you chose to drive along the bank outside the track for approx 250m, until finally you accidentally slid through the armco back onto the track. This *is* gaining an advantage, as you are preventing the cops from making an attempt at boxing in your car. There's no telling what further advantage you may have gained had you not slid back on track.


You are correct about the wording of the rules.
In Josh's defence, the rules did used to say for several years:

Quote:3.4. If your car goes out of bounds, you are arrested.

This was changed relatively recently to give suspects a chance to immediately return to the track if possible.
However, you did not immediately attempt to rejoin the track or, as far as the replay shows, did you attempt to return to the track at all. As you were steering away from the track at the time you went through the armco, I can only conclude that you were intending to stay out of bounds. You were out of bounds for about 90 seconds and travelled about 250m under your own power - that is far from immediate.


You did break rule 3.4 (even if it wasn't described in the exact way Josh said it was), however I am told that the ban was mostly due to your attitude.

IMO, the length of the ban was a little excessive for exactly what was said, but your attitude was poor. Calling people "pussies", "pathetic" and telling people to "shut up" is not appropriate behaviour.
Therefore, I will reduce your ban to xxxx (see below). I hope you will be more considerate to others in the future.



I believe one of your main arguments was that in the past your car has entered 'retired' mode and you won the chase(s) as a result? LFS doesn't detect that condition when in cruise mode and we do not currently have a reliable method of detecting whether a user is out of bounds implemented in our InSim, so it will not automatically end the chase in many cases. That does not mean that it is allowed to go out of bounds to win a chase or gain an advantage, even if it is possible to do so. We typically rely on an honour system or user reports to enforce that rule.

---

I wrote the above last night, pending a decision on how long to reduce your ban for this afternoon. However, I feel I must respond to your comments from this morning.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  I was busy to get back on the track in which I succeeded.

The replay clearly shows you making no attempt to rejoin the track at all, for at least 250 metres. In fact it appears that you only made it back on track by accident.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  Yeah, I had to say pussy there because it's only you I'm afraid.

Still being rude I see.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  The guy in the XFR [COP] Chief something followed every move I did

Actually, had you been bothered to watch the replay, you'd have seen that it was actually [COP]jones ｯ who was following your every move while you were out of bounds.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  

(2013-01-05 01:39)Josh Wrote:  In our chase, we decided we didn't want to carry on

You just made that up. Don't make things up to get yourself a good story. I don't like that, it's called corruption.

He made nothing up:

Chatlog Wrote:2013-01-05 01:15:28 UTC Montana superstix [TC]›Josh‹[VCU] : !c do you wanna carry on if he can get on the road? or end now
2013-01-05 01:15:46 UTC Montana superstix [TC]›Josh‹[VCU] : !c what do you want to do?
2013-01-05 01:15:51 UTC Montana joneszrr [COP]jones ｯ : !c well bust would be nice
2013-01-05 01:15:56 UTC Montana superstix [TC]›Josh‹[VCU] : !c ok

!c is private cop chat, seen only by cops.
As you can see, it was the same [COP]jones ｯ who was closely following you that did not want the chase to continue.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  Well.. Not talking about "faults" here anyway. Lets say he blocked my path and the only thing I could do is crash into a barrier. But that doesn't really matter, its part of the fun. Well... It should be... Fun.

But Josh didn't even block your path (even though as a cop that's pretty much his job to try). You had plenty of room to get back on the road before you slid sideways into the barrier. As far as I can see from the replay, Josh made no difference to the outcome.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  what the goal of police chases was... Its just for fun. Well, I think I need to rephrase that.. Its fun for some, there are people who just like to show that they have some extra controls and want to use that whatever the situation is. That isn't fun, thats pathetic.

It's fun while it's fair. Unfairly gaining an advantage is only fun for the person who does it and ruins the fun for everyone else. Driving off while out of bounds where the cops can't get you is being unfair, plain and simple.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  also pointing out that I have to see myself as some sort of royal status because I coincidently run some other servers. Pisses me off, like I cannot have an argument because I do more than the average LFS user.

The fact of the matter is that you run popular racing servers that have a good reputation. As such, the reputation of your servers reflects on you personally. The same goes the other way - wherever you are within the LFS community, especially when wearing the tags of your servers, you are reprisenting your servers by association whether you intend to or not. That's how others see you and that's human nature. This is pretty much exactly what you are saying here:

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  I just wanted to share my story so the rest here understand the hostility against TC cruisers from now on.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  

(2013-01-05 01:48)Lampshade Wrote:  The fact that you have failed to follow the simple "User Report Template"

I've read it. At the time I didn't have usernames and I refuse to upload enormous MPRs on my low bandwidth line.

Uploading the replay is only one part of the template. It even says "or Screenshot Link", which certainly would not take an hour to upload.
You did have the usernames at the time, because they were right there in the replay. As were the UTC timestamps of the incident.
All this is just further proof to me that you didn't even bother checking the replay to see what really happened.

---

As you can see in the first part of this post, I *was* intending to reduce your ban.
However, even though we have been polite to you throughout, both on the server and in this thread, you continue to be rude, are throwing false accusations with no evidence and you even sound as though you intend to be actively hostile towards us in the future. You didn't even care to try to provide any information to help get this resolved in a timely fashion.
As such, I have changed my mind. Your ban will stay as is unless you apologise for your rude attitude.


P.S. here's my 4.5 hour replay that I uploaded with my crappy ADSL connection. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?36yez477c3mz342
Watch from ~2:07:36

[cargame.nl]

Got reminded by a team member about this (currently driving there/here). Again, this was never intended as a report/complain by template. I simply don't have the patience to upload anything which is extremely large. I don't know about you but my upload is 15 Kb/sec max. Well, around 22 actually but if I use max then my connection dies anyway. But, I could have asked Otone to do it (disconnects a moment later) but just too much hassle and not really needed. Its all about what was being said, not done in my opinion. I could have posted this in "general", no difference.

I respect your extended reply but I am not going to apologize for the word pussy or pussiez. I still find it weak that a situation got ended automatically when there was no need for it. You can say there was a secret chat, well lovely, can't verify that. But if it was in the open my reaction would have be the same. Its just a state of mind where you are in if you are being chased for over a half hour, started by a team mate and another one is 'new' to the thing and watching / being on Teamspeak. Ending it by the system is a lack of empathy in my eyes. Yes, I was finding a way to get back, with a car broken like that it isn't that easy and I still refuse to say there was advantage. There is no advantage, I was pretty much immobilized especially after track re-entry with all suspensions completely broken. It would have ended 30 seconds later anyway.

That word was some sort of relief valve after all the tension. Not really meant to be rude. If I want to be rude I use very very different terminology.

(2013-01-05 10:49)cargame.nl Wrote:  and you even sound as though you intend to be actively hostile towards us in the future. You didn't even care to try to provide any information to help get this resolved in a timely fashion.

Because there was no intention to resolve, just saying my point of view without being interfered by people who has nothing to do with it and without being kicked lacking any warning or argumentation.

[[TC]»Elmo«]

(2013-01-05 23:12)cargame.nl Wrote:  I still find it weak that a situation got ended automatically when there was no need for it.

"Unfortunate" would be a better word than "weak" IMO, as it was partially a result of a misunderstanding of the rule. We have already spoken with Josh about it though, so this kind of thing shouldn't shouldn't happen again in similar circumstances.
Would it have been any better if the chase was ended automatically by the InSim system? That certainly would have happened if we'd chosen to implement a better check for it, or if you'd have hit a marshal zone which we do have in some strategic areas.

(2013-01-05 23:12)cargame.nl Wrote:  You can say there was a secret chat, well lovely, can't verify that..

By that metric, nothing can be proven in the digital world - screenshots of the log or the database could just as easily be fabricated I guess.

(2013-01-05 23:12)cargame.nl Wrote:  But if it was in the open my reaction would have be the same.

If the old rule was still in place, the chase would have certainly been legitimately ended in the way it did - the only way the chase would be allowed to continue would be by gentleman's agreement by all parties concerned.
The new rule (which should have been enforced initially, but unfortunately wasn't) is much more lenient in that it allows the chase to continue if the suspect attempts to rejoin the track as soon as possible.

(2013-01-05 23:12)cargame.nl Wrote:  Yes, I was finding a way to get back, with a car broken like that it isn't that easy and I still refuse to say there was advantage.

From the replay, it looks as if you could have easily just driven approximately forwards to rejoin the track within seconds, but instead spent much effort to remain out of bounds. It's not entirely a case of whether you did gain an actual advantage or not, but instead that it very much appeared that you were trying to. It may have even been better off for you if you had tried to rejoin immediately. as you'd probably have even got back on the track before the cops had turned around.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on those points.


For what it's worth, IMO it was wrong for you to have been kicked/banned as soon as you were. However, I'm sure you wouldn't have been at all if your behaviour was more civil at the time.

I'll unban you now as, frankly, I think you've been banned long enough already. Hopefully, lessons have been learned by both sides.

[cargame.nl]

Well... Yes...

I was thinking about it earlier today why this could get so out of hand. I get concerning personal messages now from different people about their status on the CG servers and eehhh... I have to admit that I overreacted in this whole incident, overlooked outcomes etcetc. Penalized myself by arriving an hour late on a great party last night because I was busy writing a reply here LOL. But eehhh.... Yeah..

I still want to apologize that people got the impression I was rude. That wasn't my intention. I am direct yes, very direct. Can't fix that anymore, need to drink more beers for that.

Good news I can escape the racing scene when some group is voting a boring track (again).

Later guys!

[Josh]

Thank you for your sincere reply. I'd also like to apologise at this point for the confusion caused by my misinterpretation of the situation.

See you on the servers

Josh.

[[TC]»Pete«]

Elmo has unbanned you.

This request will be archived in 1 day.

See you soon.

[[TC]»Pete«]

No action has been taken for reasons described.

Thank you for your report.

It has now been moved to the archives.