F1 Valencia

[[TC] Brad]

(2012-06-29 20:41)McGherkin Wrote:  

(2012-06-29 19:36)Turkey Wrote:  How aggressive a driver is or isn't doesn't change the rules and shouldn't cause you to fear contact when you're driving within the rules. Senna is a good example of this.

Maldonado WAS driving within the rules, and Hamilton made him fear contact so much Maldonado was forced to drive off the track to avoid him. If he'd had kept his line (which he has every right to do), Hamilton would have hit him on the first corner. Maldonado had to rejoin the track somewhere, and technically should've joined in front of Hamilton (or Hamilton would've gained a place by unfair advantage). Instead Hamilton kept going as fast as he could and blocked Maldonado from joining the track.

"Blocked Maldonado from joining the track" - are you serious? He could have turned left and filed in behind Hamilton on the exit of that turn. Hamilton had every right to follow any line he wished at that point, as Maldonado was off the race track.

As for "forcing him to drive off the track", that really depends on what you define as acceptable overlap - Hamilton was still in front, and so I think he was entitled to hold his line.

Either way, any experienced driver would not have tried such a foolish move, especially considering the car infront has tyres with much greater wear.

[McGherkin]

Maldonado was 100% able to take that corner. He even gave Hamilton room at the apex. And he had a clearly visible lead on Hamilton into the corner.

Also, having forced someone off the track, does not give you the right to then keep them there. You move over to the right and let them rejoin, and count yourself lucky you didn't get a penalty.

[Glass Cleaner]

Maldonado's fault for the collision. Maldonado should have realised at that point that Hamilton would have been on his racing line, and Maldonado had no space. Hamilton could have avoided it if he would have yielded but why would he?

Anyway I dislike Hamilton so lets just say I am happy that Maldonado is an idiot

[[TC] Brad]

(2012-06-29 23:27)McGherkin Wrote:  Maldonado was 100% able to take that corner. He even gave Hamilton room at the apex. And he had a clearly visible lead on Hamilton into the corner.

Also, having forced someone off the track, does not give you the right to then keep them there. You move over to the right and let them rejoin, and count yourself lucky you didn't get a penalty.

He had a visible lead before the corner, but his front tyres were aligned with Hamiltons head going through the corner.

In regards to your second point - says who? the rulebook states that the white lines define the edges of the racetrack. Maldonado was off the racetrack - therefore he must rejoin safely, and has no right to interfere with cars on the racetrack.
Maldonado obviously has a hot-headed streak about him, any other driver would have a) held their line like Hamilton did, and b) not re-join the racetrack in an unsafe manner, like Maldonado did.

[McGherkin]

It's not technically in the rules, but it's standard procedure for the drivers. It's a bit stupid to vigorously defend a place which you're going to have to give up in a minute anyway. Any other driver on the grid would've backed off. In fact any other driver on the grid wouldn't have forced Maldonado off. If Hamilton had stayed right like the rules state he should have, Maldonado would've got past in a clean overtake, and Hamilton would've finished the race.

Oh, and the lead car going into the corner has priority throughout the corner.

Option a) hold the line, is not an option, because Hamilton would have hit him.

[[TC] Brad]

(2012-06-30 10:59)McGherkin Wrote:  It's not technically in the rules, but it's standard procedure for the drivers. It's a bit stupid to vigorously defend a place which you're going to have to give up in a minute anyway.

It's called racing? Maybe Hamilton would have been able to hold him off until the end, no-one knows.

(2012-06-30 10:59)McGherkin Wrote:  Oh, and the lead car going into the corner has priority throughout the corner.

From the footage it looks like Hamilton was marginally ahead 1m before the apex of the turn.

And I was saying that any other driver on the grid would have done what Hamilton did in that situation - 1 lap to go, 2nd place, leading at the apex of the turn. Maybe in another situation Hamilton would have given more room, but I don't think in this example, Pastor was in a position to demand it.

[McGherkin]

Who else would risk their entire race by forcing someone off the track, against the rules?

[[TC] Brad]

Well racing against anyone else, he wouldn't be risking his whole race - it was only because he was racing Maldonado, that he ended up DNF.

Also, you mention "against the rules", says who? The stewards obviously didn't agree.

[Vee]

Please, pipe down.

[Glass Cleaner]

1 lap to go, 2nd place: you wouldn't risk being hit by anyone. You would make sure you finish the race.

Lead car has priority going in to corner? Ok so suppose lapped car infront is infront of a leader...should he hold his racing line impeding the leader?

Any other driving would not rejoin track? Actually I think Hamilton actually did that dangerously last year in Hungary. Few laps left, he spun out. He then spun his car around forcing a Force India on to the grass to avoid him.

EDIT: Also lets keep this as friendly as possible

[[TC] Brad]

(2012-06-30 15:19)Glass Cleaner Wrote:  Any other driving would not rejoin track? Actually I think Hamilton actually did that dangerously last year in Hungary. Few laps left, he spun out. He then spun his car around forcing a Force India on to the grass to avoid him.

EDIT: Also lets keep this as friendly as possible

I seem to remember he was still on the race-track at that point, and I believe he got a drive through penalty for it at the time. (I may be wrong, but I'm sure he did)

Oh, and I didn't say the lead car has priority in the corner, McG said this arguing that Maldonado was ahead of Hammy. I was just saying that that point is not relevant, because Hamilton was actually in front of Maldonado at the apex.
Of course every incident is different, you can't say that x% of the car has to be in front of the other to 'gain' the corner - it depends entirely on the situation.

[[RDSR] Roba]

Maldonado did it again.

[McGherkin]

Yup. He did what Hamilton did in the first corner of the crash of Valencia, only Perez didn't run off track to avoid him.

[Malibu]

You guys are just plain blind..

[[RDSR] Roba]

For me it looked like Maldonado took the wide line as he saw Perez was overtaking, and caused a crash. Pretty much drove into Perez, didn't see it but our commentators said that he even slowed down a little.

[[TC] Brad]

(2012-07-08 15:55)McGherkin Wrote:  Yup. He did what Hamilton did in the first corner of the crash of Valencia, only Perez didn't run off track to avoid him.

Again, a point of view not backed up by the stewards - Maldonado handed a fine and a reprimand. He strayed off the racing line and collided with Perez (admittedly not on purpose, just carrying too much speed).

Perez did nothing wrong, he gave Maldonado room, but he just went too quickly in the turn and lost control.

TBH it was a racing incident, but taking into account Maldonado's past incidents, a pattern is emerging... he is not very smart under pressure.

Although as always McG, I'm sure you have your own view...

[McGherkin]

(2012-07-08 16:46)Brad Wrote:  Again, a point of view not backed up by the stewards - Maldonado handed a fine and a reprimand.

Read what I said again - I said Maldonado was at fault this time.

[Vee]

He's been at fault everytime..

[McGherkin]

Yes, he ultimately caused the crash with Hamilton, but it wouldn't have happened if Hamilton hadn't forced him off the track.

I'm not saying that he isn't a stupid, dangerous driver, but I do think Valencia wasn't entirely his fault.

[[RDSR] Roba]

Valencia was the consequence of mistakes made by both Hamilton AND Maldonado. Basically the incident wasn't just other's fault, but both. (MY opinion.)